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This is what we get for installing mandatory government backdoors all over our communications infrastructure. Unbelievable that such a critical piece of infrast

This is what we get for installing mandatory government backdoors all over our communications infrastructure. Unbelievable that such a critical piece of infrastructure wasn't secured properly. But after the OPM hack and the bungled implementation of CIA "drop sites" online, nothing about our government's cyber incompetence surprises me anymore.

dlcarrier 1y ago
I'm really tempted to stop using phone numbers, altogether. The security is really bad, and phone numbers are used for identification almost as often as social security numbers, but there's no requirement to have one.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Technically not. But not having a working phone number will quickly become a problem when you need to interact with authorities, banks, insurance companies, the legal system etc. I remember when cell phones were becoming affordable and I thought I was clever by ditching my land line. That got me no end of trouble, then bit by bit it became more normalized to the point that if you have a landline now people look at you a little funny. Not having a phone number today would be the same as not having a landline would have been in the early 90's, and probably much worse than not having a phone was back then.
  - latchkey 1y ago
    Even worse is that a lot of these services block the google voice VoIP numbers, so you can't even get away with that.
    - jkestner 1y ago
      Imagine if they could block the banks of numbers that bad actors use.
      - jacquesm 1y ago
        This is one of the more annoying things I'm dealing with at the moment. Some bad actor (a Belgian company called Voxbone) that has thousands of numbers in NL keeps calling me with all kinds of obviously scammy proposals. They're abusive, rude and just won't get lost and they just keep switching to new numbers.
        reaperducer 1y ago
        This can't be happening. There are easily hundreds of comments on HN from people in Europe who assure us all that this is solely an American problem, and that it never happens anywhere else.
        jacquesm 1y ago
        Europe usually lags the USA on such subjects by about a decade.
        hyperman1 1y ago
        That's what it is? As a Belgian, I've got these calls for a few months now, from France or the Netherlands. Some robotic french female voice says something incomprehensible, then the call stops. Got about 8 of these in the last 2 months. I assumed this was mostly a US problem, but it appears over here now.
      - kmeisthax 1y ago
        [dead]
    - mjevans 1y ago
      Which is crazy, since that's the only service that even PARTLY filters some of the insane level of spam that gets sent to my unused prepaid number that everyone contacting is clearly an automated spambot.
    - dlcarrier 1y ago
      That's what I do use, when a phone number is needed. The only placed that seemed to notice was OpenAI, but my GPU has 16 GB of RAM, so I run all my inferencing locally, using open models, which is a good idea anyway. The bigger problem with Google Voice is that Google's email gateway for SMS is awful. It cuts off outgoing messages after two carriage returns, strips out single carriage returns, and won't send me group messages, instead sending me a link to the message, and even that only rarely, usually not even notifying me that I received a group message. I've found a few alternatives, and I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars a month for one, but every one I've looked into requires I upload a copy of my photo ID, and I'm definately not going to do that.
      - backscratches 1y ago
        Jmp.chat is superb (time tested, open source, great support)... And cheogram (their mobile app) can be a UnifiedPush distributor!
  - Waterluvian 1y ago
    Six years ago when I obtained a mortgage I tested just this. Correct email and address but no phone number. What happened is that the documentation and all that with the lender was submitted fine without one. And my broker didn’t need one (we used email after our first in-person visit). But once I logged in to manage the mortgage (after a few payments already) it insisted on a number. I put in a null number and it was fine. This only became a problem when the mortgage was paid off last year and despite getting emails about it, I got a registered letter saying they must talk to me and that haven’t been answering my phone. So I call them as instructed and it was just a “you’re done. We’ll be mailing you documents to send to your insurer. Thanks for your business.” FWIW: I’ve never personally owned a land line. The last time I ever lived somewhere with one was 19 years ago.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      Not a bad score, paying off your mortgage in 6 years. Congratulations!!
  - dlcarrier 1y ago
    My bank's two-factor authentication system lets the user select the communications method before logging in, so I set my phone number to a 555 exchange, making it invalid, and it hasn't cause any trouble. A teller did once notice it, but agreed it was a good idea. There's no way the legal system could require a phone number, because the government overplays their support for the homeless, and being able to work with people that don't have phone numbers is a big part of that.
krisbolton 1y ago
Top tier state-sponsored actors don't need backdoors, their skill, resources, and persistance mean they can penetrate almost any system. Ascrbing this to mandatory backdoors distracts from the fact we need to improve cyber resilence and build better offense. Reading the Atlantic Council's recent paper on what the US can do to counter the system China has created which funnels exploits to their government shows how mistatched the West is versus China. Paper here: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Crash-exploit-and-burn_DeSombre-Bernsen.pdf https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/C...
- hammock 1y ago
  You are being downvoted by anti-backdoor people, which is fine, but you highlight an interesting new facet of the discussion: How do we build a functioning world where secrets are not required? By this I don’t mean “everyone behaves good and therefore has nothing to hide/fear” but rather, how do we function in a world in which secrets are simply not possible?
  - christophilus 1y ago
    Locally.
  - ptero 1y ago
    It is not black and white. There is a continuum of difference between my whole life being discoverable by a targeted effort of a major state (for which there were always very few defenses) and "we have no privacy" world where my whole life is being easily seen by anyone: employers, coworkers, neighbors, potential dates, etc. I think sliding down towards "I have no privacy" end of the spectrum is bad for both the citizens and the society. Stopping the this slide is a worthwhile goal. My 2c.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Generally? Lots and lots of lying and bullshit, so people stop knowing or caring what the actual truth is as long as people do x specific thing they need.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
Computers can never be 100% secure. It’s just a matter of how many zeros one is willing to spend, especially when physical access to the hardware is so easy (for nation states).
- Veserv 1y ago
  You only need to spend barely 7 zeros to defeat any organization in the world. About half of a single tank to defeat any commercial IT system no matter how much they spend on “security”.
  - beeflet 1y ago
    Then let them spend it instead of giving your data away for free
    - busterarm 1y ago
      It's a lot cheaper to just kidnap and interrogate someone with the access you need. And that's only if blackmail didn't work.
      - beeflet 1y ago
        Okay then make them do that instead of giving your data away for free
    - Veserv 1y ago
      That is what they did. Salt Typhoon is what they got. This will continue to happen until critical software systems are secure against state actors and requires tens to hundreds of billions of dollars to compromise instead of millions to tens of millions (in the hardest cases).
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > when physical access to the hardware is so easy (for nation states) So where is our deep, persistent infiltration of China?

dlcarrier 1y ago

I'm really tempted to stop using phone numbers, altogether. The security is really bad, and phone numbers are used for identification almost as often as social security numbers, but there's no requirement to have one.

jacquesm 1y ago
Technically not. But not having a working phone number will quickly become a problem when you need to interact with authorities, banks, insurance companies, the legal system etc. I remember when cell phones were becoming affordable and I thought I was clever by ditching my land line. That got me no end of trouble, then bit by bit it became more normalized to the point that if you have a landline now people look at you a little funny. Not having a phone number today would be the same as not having a landline would have been in the early 90's, and probably much worse than not having a phone was back then.
- latchkey 1y ago
  Even worse is that a lot of these services block the google voice VoIP numbers, so you can't even get away with that.
  - jkestner 1y ago
    Imagine if they could block the banks of numbers that bad actors use.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      This is one of the more annoying things I'm dealing with at the moment. Some bad actor (a Belgian company called Voxbone) that has thousands of numbers in NL keeps calling me with all kinds of obviously scammy proposals. They're abusive, rude and just won't get lost and they just keep switching to new numbers.
      - reaperducer 1y ago
        This can't be happening. There are easily hundreds of comments on HN from people in Europe who assure us all that this is solely an American problem, and that it never happens anywhere else.
        jacquesm 1y ago
        Europe usually lags the USA on such subjects by about a decade.
      - hyperman1 1y ago
        That's what it is? As a Belgian, I've got these calls for a few months now, from France or the Netherlands. Some robotic french female voice says something incomprehensible, then the call stops. Got about 8 of these in the last 2 months. I assumed this was mostly a US problem, but it appears over here now.
    - kmeisthax 1y ago
      [dead]
  - mjevans 1y ago
    Which is crazy, since that's the only service that even PARTLY filters some of the insane level of spam that gets sent to my unused prepaid number that everyone contacting is clearly an automated spambot.
  - dlcarrier 1y ago
    That's what I do use, when a phone number is needed. The only placed that seemed to notice was OpenAI, but my GPU has 16 GB of RAM, so I run all my inferencing locally, using open models, which is a good idea anyway. The bigger problem with Google Voice is that Google's email gateway for SMS is awful. It cuts off outgoing messages after two carriage returns, strips out single carriage returns, and won't send me group messages, instead sending me a link to the message, and even that only rarely, usually not even notifying me that I received a group message. I've found a few alternatives, and I wouldn't mind paying a few dollars a month for one, but every one I've looked into requires I upload a copy of my photo ID, and I'm definately not going to do that.
    - backscratches 1y ago
      Jmp.chat is superb (time tested, open source, great support)... And cheogram (their mobile app) can be a UnifiedPush distributor!
- Waterluvian 1y ago
  Six years ago when I obtained a mortgage I tested just this. Correct email and address but no phone number. What happened is that the documentation and all that with the lender was submitted fine without one. And my broker didn’t need one (we used email after our first in-person visit). But once I logged in to manage the mortgage (after a few payments already) it insisted on a number. I put in a null number and it was fine. This only became a problem when the mortgage was paid off last year and despite getting emails about it, I got a registered letter saying they must talk to me and that haven’t been answering my phone. So I call them as instructed and it was just a “you’re done. We’ll be mailing you documents to send to your insurer. Thanks for your business.” FWIW: I’ve never personally owned a land line. The last time I ever lived somewhere with one was 19 years ago.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Not a bad score, paying off your mortgage in 6 years. Congratulations!!
- dlcarrier 1y ago
  My bank's two-factor authentication system lets the user select the communications method before logging in, so I set my phone number to a 555 exchange, making it invalid, and it hasn't cause any trouble. A teller did once notice it, but agreed it was a good idea. There's no way the legal system could require a phone number, because the government overplays their support for the homeless, and being able to work with people that don't have phone numbers is a big part of that.

krisbolton 1y ago

Top tier state-sponsored actors don't need backdoors, their skill, resources, and persistance mean they can penetrate almost any system. Ascrbing this to mandatory backdoors distracts from the fact we need to improve cyber resilence and build better offense. Reading the Atlantic Council's recent paper on what the US can do to counter the system China has created which funnels exploits to their government shows how mistatched the West is versus China. Paper here: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/Crash-exploit-and-burn_DeSombre-Bernsen.pdf https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/C...

hammock 1y ago
You are being downvoted by anti-backdoor people, which is fine, but you highlight an interesting new facet of the discussion: How do we build a functioning world where secrets are not required? By this I don’t mean “everyone behaves good and therefore has nothing to hide/fear” but rather, how do we function in a world in which secrets are simply not possible?
- christophilus 1y ago
  Locally.
- ptero 1y ago
  It is not black and white. There is a continuum of difference between my whole life being discoverable by a targeted effort of a major state (for which there were always very few defenses) and "we have no privacy" world where my whole life is being easily seen by anyone: employers, coworkers, neighbors, potential dates, etc. I think sliding down towards "I have no privacy" end of the spectrum is bad for both the citizens and the society. Stopping the this slide is a worthwhile goal. My 2c.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Generally? Lots and lots of lying and bullshit, so people stop knowing or caring what the actual truth is as long as people do x specific thing they need.

mensetmanusman 1y ago

Computers can never be 100% secure. It’s just a matter of how many zeros one is willing to spend, especially when physical access to the hardware is so easy (for nation states).

Veserv 1y ago
You only need to spend barely 7 zeros to defeat any organization in the world. About half of a single tank to defeat any commercial IT system no matter how much they spend on “security”.
- beeflet 1y ago
  Then let them spend it instead of giving your data away for free
  - busterarm 1y ago
    It's a lot cheaper to just kidnap and interrogate someone with the access you need. And that's only if blackmail didn't work.
    - beeflet 1y ago
      Okay then make them do that instead of giving your data away for free
  - Veserv 1y ago
    That is what they did. Salt Typhoon is what they got. This will continue to happen until critical software systems are secure against state actors and requires tens to hundreds of billions of dollars to compromise instead of millions to tens of millions (in the hardest cases).
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> when physical access to the hardware is so easy (for nation states) So where is our deep, persistent infiltration of China?