6 ms·

Developers are allergic to career advancement for a few reasons. They tend to be a fairly risk averse lot, with many unwilling to trade the devil they know for

by dpeck 14y ago

Developers are allergic to career advancement for a few reasons. They tend to be a fairly risk averse lot, with many unwilling to trade the devil they know for the devil they don't. They also tend to have a low bullshit tolerance and get worn down quickly with the hassle that recruiting/employment has become. Multiple phone interviews, HR people, code tests, and then the "used car salesman" process of salary negotiation. Its draining, especially when you're an introvert by nature. I went through this once with a semi-established startup when I was looking for my 2nd job. 3 interviews in they wouldn't discuss salary over the phone, wanted me to come in to meet with the CTO again to discuss. I burned the bridge at that point, and became fairly jaded to the whole process. Get salary info up from, if what you want is near the top of any range they give drop it and move on theres no oppertunity for advancement. If they won't give salary range, drop it and move on. More than 2 interviews after the inital HR screening, move on. And realistically if you're a somewhat proven commodity you should be able to hammer out all the details off-site over coffee/beer and finish up the formalities in a few hours at the office. We're fortunate enough to have a high demand skillset at the moment, and thankfully most of us can approach these situations from a position of "power", but sadly most of us don't.

mratzloff 14y ago
I think this hits the nail on the head. Stop putting up with bullshit, guys.
dclusin 14y ago
Also for me it's the threat of potential downtime. Switching organizations is a hugely expensive process and to create anything of consequence (e.g. not some stupid rails crud app) takes a lot of domain knowledge and experience with the existing code base. When I think about switching organizations I dread the inevitable "setting up the enviornment" slog as it's required but not useful to anybody. At my current job I have my pick of hugely complex and difficult problems ready and waiting. And of course there is also tons of open source projects a click away
- pasbesoin 14y ago
  And sometimes, acquiring some of the knowledge can be like pulling teeth (very difficult and perhaps political).
pasbesoin 14y ago
I want to see the work environment. First hand, during the day. If you're going to insist on interviewing me elsewhere (even in meeting rooms in the "guests" part of the building), this doesn't cut it. I've endured enough crap physical environments (loud, no privacy, etc.) that I'm not interested in "rolling the dice" with respect to where physically I'll be working.
Zelphyr 14y ago
While I think nobody should take less than they're worth, basing your decision simply on what the job pays is doing yourself a disservice.
- dpeck 14y ago
  Agreed, and not saying that at all, but to me thats the biggest tip off that its a bad fit. If they're secretive with salary, or try to hard sell me on the position, or they're unwilling to make a decision and be confident in it without many many meetings then those same things are likely to be reflected in day to day situations after coming onboard. Interviewing should give you a fairly clear picture of how functional or disfuntional an organization is. You just have to be sure that its a function/disfunction mix that you can thrive in.
moocow01 14y ago
"with many unwilling to trade the devil they know for the devil they don't" This is a big reason for me - I will only work in jobs where Im working for someone or with someone (whos already with the employer) that I already have a previous relationship with. (This would obviously change if I found myself on street.) The problem is that Ive found that it is extremely rare to find an employer that isn't a schyster ready to milk you, "the resource", for all your worth while paying as little as they can (which these days is admittedly pretty high). In fact in tech this is the normal "good business" practice behind the curtain - get as much as you can out of your employees for as little as you can. And its an extremely small minded perspective that usually over the long term leads to high turnover and horrifying codebases and half assed products that impact the bottom line. If you find a pretty good employer that your happy with it will cause you to pause when the next opportunity comes along because you might be expected to work 50% more time on CRUD stuff for that extra 20% raise. Its usually somewhat hard to tell from the exterior what your really stepping into.
- nazgulnarsil 14y ago
  Agreed. The variance in work conditions as a developer is higher than most jobs. And these differences are often quite opaque from the outside.
- indiecore 14y ago
  >extremely rare to find an employer that isn't a schyster ready to milk you, "the resource", for all your worth while paying as little as they can Isn't that the definition of business? Get as much as you can for as little as you can?
  - moocow01 14y ago
    It is a very specific definition of business - the problem is that the equation in most employers head is as little pay for the most amount of work done and Ive found that this typically is a poor way to think when producing software that really thrives on creativity and quality. In otherwords, treating it like a factory line with cost spreadsheets typically leads to bad things for the business
anon987 14y ago
I'm looking for something right now, I have a very strong resume, and am willing to relocate anywhere so I'm getting 15-20 e-mails a day. This is part rant part so you might want to stop reading: - I send a recruiter my resume, they call me 20 seconds later and want to discuss it. I took hours to write a damn good resume. Read it, contact me with questions that ARE NOT answered by what I just sent you. It's all laid out in front of you, stop wasting my time. - How many years of experience do you have with product X? Again, you can read the resume and add it up, not hard. - Don't ask me to put other opportunities on hold or somehow make your opportunity exclusive. If this was a perfect world where companies and recruiters got back to me with a yes/no in a day I would be fine with that, but expecting me to ignore 20 other e-mails when you never get back to me or take two weeks to schedule an interview is laughable. If you want me, step up or step off. - You contacted me about a position that's W2 and offers NO benefits? Seriously? - If you only send a location and job title it's going in the trash. - If I don't respond to the initial or 2nd e-mail, I won't respond the 5th time you spam at me. - I can tell that some recruiters are using me to simply fill their daily quota of sending e-mails. All of my past job titles are related to Linux / UNIX and I mention EMC once so you're going to send me storage admin jobs? Stop it. - No need to tell me positions are "urgent" or have an "immediate need". When it comes to hiring the need is always immediate, and when I see the word "urgent" it means OH GOD I HOPE I GET TO HIM FIRST I NEED MY COMMISSION. - Oh, working with Product X is required and you only mention that after I send you the exact same resume you saw on a job site? If it's not on my resume I haven't worked it it, stop wasting my time to fill your daily e-mail quotas. - Stop creating hoops. Bob gets my resume who sends it to his account manager Jane who sends it to Bill in HR who sends it to the supervisor John who sends it to the hiring manager Rick. By the time my resume gets to Rick it's been 3 weeks and someone has already scooped me up. - Stop with this subcontractor -> subcontractor -> outsourcing company -> outsourcing company -> actual client bullshit. After all of these worthless middlemen get their cut the actual company ends up paying way way more than they would hiring directly. My former (and very good natured) boss and I had a good laugh when we realized the company was paying almost twice as much for me as he made. - Just because you have a branch office near me doesn't mean I want to drive down, fill out a bunch of paperwork, and waste an afternoon. - Stop leaving me in the dark if you don't want me. I can tell some contract houses are doing this intentionally because they don't want to submit me but also don't want me to try again with a competing contract house that WILL submit me. Naughty, naughty. - You expect me to spend a few hundred dollars to travel to your location for the 2nd, in-person interview? Riiiiight. - I've only talked with three recruiters that I actually like as people. I resent the other 95% because they might be getting $10-20 for each hour I work just because they are keyword monkeys. - Inefficient recruiting practices are driving away potential talent, period. Your company needs talent? Start by getting talented HR and in-house recruiters. Ahh, I feel a bit better. What a shitty day. dpeck is completely right about the hassle it's become. I'm only on week #2, I'm already fucking sick of it, and will take almost anything just to make it all stop.

by dpeck 14y ago

mratzloff 14y ago

I think this hits the nail on the head. Stop putting up with bullshit, guys.

dclusin 14y ago

Also for me it's the threat of potential downtime. Switching organizations is a hugely expensive process and to create anything of consequence (e.g. not some stupid rails crud app) takes a lot of domain knowledge and experience with the existing code base. When I think about switching organizations I dread the inevitable "setting up the enviornment" slog as it's required but not useful to anybody. At my current job I have my pick of hugely complex and difficult problems ready and waiting. And of course there is also tons of open source projects a click away

pasbesoin 14y ago
And sometimes, acquiring some of the knowledge can be like pulling teeth (very difficult and perhaps political).

pasbesoin 14y ago

I want to see the work environment. First hand, during the day. If you're going to insist on interviewing me elsewhere (even in meeting rooms in the "guests" part of the building), this doesn't cut it. I've endured enough crap physical environments (loud, no privacy, etc.) that I'm not interested in "rolling the dice" with respect to where physically I'll be working.

Zelphyr 14y ago

While I think nobody should take less than they're worth, basing your decision simply on what the job pays is doing yourself a disservice.

dpeck 14y ago
Agreed, and not saying that at all, but to me thats the biggest tip off that its a bad fit. If they're secretive with salary, or try to hard sell me on the position, or they're unwilling to make a decision and be confident in it without many many meetings then those same things are likely to be reflected in day to day situations after coming onboard. Interviewing should give you a fairly clear picture of how functional or disfuntional an organization is. You just have to be sure that its a function/disfunction mix that you can thrive in.

moocow01 14y ago

"with many unwilling to trade the devil they know for the devil they don't" This is a big reason for me - I will only work in jobs where Im working for someone or with someone (whos already with the employer) that I already have a previous relationship with. (This would obviously change if I found myself on street.) The problem is that Ive found that it is extremely rare to find an employer that isn't a schyster ready to milk you, "the resource", for all your worth while paying as little as they can (which these days is admittedly pretty high). In fact in tech this is the normal "good business" practice behind the curtain - get as much as you can out of your employees for as little as you can. And its an extremely small minded perspective that usually over the long term leads to high turnover and horrifying codebases and half assed products that impact the bottom line. If you find a pretty good employer that your happy with it will cause you to pause when the next opportunity comes along because you might be expected to work 50% more time on CRUD stuff for that extra 20% raise. Its usually somewhat hard to tell from the exterior what your really stepping into.

nazgulnarsil 14y ago
Agreed. The variance in work conditions as a developer is higher than most jobs. And these differences are often quite opaque from the outside.
indiecore 14y ago
>extremely rare to find an employer that isn't a schyster ready to milk you, "the resource", for all your worth while paying as little as they can Isn't that the definition of business? Get as much as you can for as little as you can?
- moocow01 14y ago
  It is a very specific definition of business - the problem is that the equation in most employers head is as little pay for the most amount of work done and Ive found that this typically is a poor way to think when producing software that really thrives on creativity and quality. In otherwords, treating it like a factory line with cost spreadsheets typically leads to bad things for the business

anon987 14y ago

I'm looking for something right now, I have a very strong resume, and am willing to relocate anywhere so I'm getting 15-20 e-mails a day. This is part rant part so you might want to stop reading: - I send a recruiter my resume, they call me 20 seconds later and want to discuss it. I took hours to write a damn good resume. Read it, contact me with questions that ARE NOT answered by what I just sent you. It's all laid out in front of you, stop wasting my time. - How many years of experience do you have with product X? Again, you can read the resume and add it up, not hard. - Don't ask me to put other opportunities on hold or somehow make your opportunity exclusive. If this was a perfect world where companies and recruiters got back to me with a yes/no in a day I would be fine with that, but expecting me to ignore 20 other e-mails when you never get back to me or take two weeks to schedule an interview is laughable. If you want me, step up or step off. - You contacted me about a position that's W2 and offers NO benefits? Seriously? - If you only send a location and job title it's going in the trash. - If I don't respond to the initial or 2nd e-mail, I won't respond the 5th time you spam at me. - I can tell that some recruiters are using me to simply fill their daily quota of sending e-mails. All of my past job titles are related to Linux / UNIX and I mention EMC once so you're going to send me storage admin jobs? Stop it. - No need to tell me positions are "urgent" or have an "immediate need". When it comes to hiring the need is always immediate, and when I see the word "urgent" it means OH GOD I HOPE I GET TO HIM FIRST I NEED MY COMMISSION. - Oh, working with Product X is required and you only mention that after I send you the exact same resume you saw on a job site? If it's not on my resume I haven't worked it it, stop wasting my time to fill your daily e-mail quotas. - Stop creating hoops. Bob gets my resume who sends it to his account manager Jane who sends it to Bill in HR who sends it to the supervisor John who sends it to the hiring manager Rick. By the time my resume gets to Rick it's been 3 weeks and someone has already scooped me up. - Stop with this subcontractor -> subcontractor -> outsourcing company -> outsourcing company -> actual client bullshit. After all of these worthless middlemen get their cut the actual company ends up paying way way more than they would hiring directly. My former (and very good natured) boss and I had a good laugh when we realized the company was paying almost twice as much for me as he made. - Just because you have a branch office near me doesn't mean I want to drive down, fill out a bunch of paperwork, and waste an afternoon. - Stop leaving me in the dark if you don't want me. I can tell some contract houses are doing this intentionally because they don't want to submit me but also don't want me to try again with a competing contract house that WILL submit me. Naughty, naughty. - You expect me to spend a few hundred dollars to travel to your location for the 2nd, in-person interview? Riiiiight. - I've only talked with three recruiters that I actually like as people. I resent the other 95% because they might be getting $10-20 for each hour I work just because they are keyword monkeys. - Inefficient recruiting practices are driving away potential talent, period. Your company needs talent? Start by getting talented HR and in-house recruiters. Ahh, I feel a bit better. What a shitty day. dpeck is completely right about the hassle it's become. I'm only on week #2, I'm already fucking sick of it, and will take almost anything just to make it all stop.