4 ms·

More and more it seems that a country is fundamentally not allowed to say "no" to immigration. Even the ~1 million/year for the last 25 years [1] that the US ha

More and more it seems that a country is fundamentally not allowed to say "no" to immigration. Even the ~1 million/year for the last 25 years [1] that the US has admitted legally is deemed too restrictive, so those who try to enforce immigration law are attacked. No position short of "America belongs to everyone" is permitted, no matter what voters says. I wonder if experts will emerge to call this inciting "stochastic terrorism" [2]. I won't be holding my breath. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_immigration_statistics#Persons_getting_permanent_resident_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_immigration_stat... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_terrorism

jeffbee 1y ago
The "process" in the phrase "due process" is there to ensure that the cops have the right guy, that they actually did something, and that their removal from one place to another is the appropriate remedy.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Such details used to matter. It was a more civilized time.
- steveBK123 1y ago
  Disappointing & unsurprising to see the "law & order" as well as libertarian right types so supportive of stripping due process here. The ability of government to hold you indefinitely, punish, deport you, etc without going thru courts simply by declaring you a criminal is how you get gulags. Yes maybe this time they don't look like you and their last names end in z which yours doesn't, but wait until the next time.
banku_brougham 1y ago
This is not enforcement, it is a spree of extrajudicial kidnappings without orders from the court. This puts us back so far even the Magna Carta is futuristic.
- hallole 1y ago
  I think it's an understandable overshoot to confront what some might see as a long-standing, festering problem. This isn't an endorsement, but the frantic attitude makes sense: rush and get the job done, there's only one 4-year-term in which to do it.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    If it's amazing people will demand that it continue.
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    Sure, first you hallucinate a problem that doesn't exist, then you shred the Constitution "solving" the imaginary problem. Literally the Hitler gambit.
    - hallole 1y ago
      Illegal immigration is far from an imaginary problem. Any immigration at all will affect the availability of homes, of jobs, of healthcare... So, it ought to be monitored and controlled. This is becoming more relevant as home prices rise and the job market stays sucking. I don't even think ripping the Constitution up would render the problem "solved." It would really help relieve the panic if the parties could at least agree that the issue does exist; until then, any government plan can expect to be overturned in four years time. To clarify: not defending literally A.H., I think that's a mischaracterization.
      - minwcnt5 1y ago
        Well, no, almost everything you said simply isn't true. Immigrants create jobs. They create homes. They make healthcare more available. Why? Because they work productively, they earn money, and they spend it in the US. "Illegals" do all this while paying taxes without being eligible for benefits, so arguably they help America more than an average citizen. There are good reasons to limit immigration, but "they're taking our jobs" isn't one of them.
m_fayer 1y ago
Desiring less immigration is legit. I’m sorry that was screamed down by unreasonable people. Corrupting our democracy to get your way is not legit even if you were unfairly screamed down. The corruption will be fought tooth and nail.
- cmurf 1y ago
  By electing a racist, rapist, felon, and vile insurrectionist. These are not good people.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    I believe that you misread the direction of m_fayer's comment.
cosmicgadget 1y ago
> being anti-immigration is not allowed anymore > current party in power 11xed the ICE budget, built Alligator Alcatraz, and has deals with foreign governments to deport people straight to prison I'm not sure I can square your victimhood with reality.
danudey 1y ago
Saying "no" to immigration is one thing; masked unidentified thugs surrounding a student with a legal visa in the streets and throwing her into an unmarked van to deport her with no warning isn't anti-immigration, it's a violation of civil rights. Shipping someone to a concentration camp in El Salvador despite the fact that a federal judge ordered that they not be sent to El Salvador, insisting without evidence that they were a member of a gang, saying anyone who wants them to be able to defend themselves in court is pro-gang-violence, and then insisting that there's nothing you can do to get them back so everyone should stop complaining and move in... that's some fascist secret police shit.
- _zagj 1y ago
  Maybe the left should have offered genuine concessions on immigration and border security when they had the chance. E.g., support the construction of a wall without expecting anything like "comprehensive immigration reform" (read: amnesty) in return. Instead you dragged your feet at every opportunity, even as the entire world made a mockery of our immigration laws: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyssZRWaMWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyssZRWaMWg Trump's second term, with his sledgehammer approach, is the natural result.
  - like_any_other 1y ago
    > E.g., support the construction of a wall without expecting anything like "comprehensive immigration reform" (read: amnesty) in return. They had already gotten amnesty once, but not much came of the promised increased illegal immigration scrutiny (and nothing was done to reduce legal immigration at all): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986#On_illegal_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...
toastercat 1y ago
Sorry, but this is an awful strawman argument.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
what a terrible take there's law enforcement that follows due process, and there's "law enforcement" that doesn't the former is the regular police (when they're doing their job right), the latter is the Gestapo and ICE the problem isn't so much immigration laws; it's 1) the way ICE is enforcing them, and 2) the fact that a non-trivial percentage of US businesses actually depend on that illegal immigration (which is why after political pressure, Trump made "exceptions" for certain businesses--not exceptions to the law, exceptions to its enforcement)

jeffbee 1y ago

The "process" in the phrase "due process" is there to ensure that the cops have the right guy, that they actually did something, and that their removal from one place to another is the appropriate remedy.

jacquesm 1y ago
Such details used to matter. It was a more civilized time.
steveBK123 1y ago
Disappointing & unsurprising to see the "law & order" as well as libertarian right types so supportive of stripping due process here. The ability of government to hold you indefinitely, punish, deport you, etc without going thru courts simply by declaring you a criminal is how you get gulags. Yes maybe this time they don't look like you and their last names end in z which yours doesn't, but wait until the next time.

banku_brougham 1y ago

This is not enforcement, it is a spree of extrajudicial kidnappings without orders from the court. This puts us back so far even the Magna Carta is futuristic.

hallole 1y ago
I think it's an understandable overshoot to confront what some might see as a long-standing, festering problem. This isn't an endorsement, but the frantic attitude makes sense: rush and get the job done, there's only one 4-year-term in which to do it.
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  If it's amazing people will demand that it continue.
- jeffbee 1y ago
  Sure, first you hallucinate a problem that doesn't exist, then you shred the Constitution "solving" the imaginary problem. Literally the Hitler gambit.
  - hallole 1y ago
    Illegal immigration is far from an imaginary problem. Any immigration at all will affect the availability of homes, of jobs, of healthcare... So, it ought to be monitored and controlled. This is becoming more relevant as home prices rise and the job market stays sucking. I don't even think ripping the Constitution up would render the problem "solved." It would really help relieve the panic if the parties could at least agree that the issue does exist; until then, any government plan can expect to be overturned in four years time. To clarify: not defending literally A.H., I think that's a mischaracterization.
    - minwcnt5 1y ago
      Well, no, almost everything you said simply isn't true. Immigrants create jobs. They create homes. They make healthcare more available. Why? Because they work productively, they earn money, and they spend it in the US. "Illegals" do all this while paying taxes without being eligible for benefits, so arguably they help America more than an average citizen. There are good reasons to limit immigration, but "they're taking our jobs" isn't one of them.

m_fayer 1y ago

Desiring less immigration is legit. I’m sorry that was screamed down by unreasonable people. Corrupting our democracy to get your way is not legit even if you were unfairly screamed down. The corruption will be fought tooth and nail.

cmurf 1y ago
By electing a racist, rapist, felon, and vile insurrectionist. These are not good people.
- AnimalMuppet 1y ago
  I believe that you misread the direction of m_fayer's comment.

cosmicgadget 1y ago

> being anti-immigration is not allowed anymore > current party in power 11xed the ICE budget, built Alligator Alcatraz, and has deals with foreign governments to deport people straight to prison I'm not sure I can square your victimhood with reality.

danudey 1y ago

Saying "no" to immigration is one thing; masked unidentified thugs surrounding a student with a legal visa in the streets and throwing her into an unmarked van to deport her with no warning isn't anti-immigration, it's a violation of civil rights. Shipping someone to a concentration camp in El Salvador despite the fact that a federal judge ordered that they not be sent to El Salvador, insisting without evidence that they were a member of a gang, saying anyone who wants them to be able to defend themselves in court is pro-gang-violence, and then insisting that there's nothing you can do to get them back so everyone should stop complaining and move in... that's some fascist secret police shit.

_zagj 1y ago
Maybe the left should have offered genuine concessions on immigration and border security when they had the chance. E.g., support the construction of a wall without expecting anything like "comprehensive immigration reform" (read: amnesty) in return. Instead you dragged your feet at every opportunity, even as the entire world made a mockery of our immigration laws: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyssZRWaMWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyssZRWaMWg Trump's second term, with his sledgehammer approach, is the natural result.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  > E.g., support the construction of a wall without expecting anything like "comprehensive immigration reform" (read: amnesty) in return. They had already gotten amnesty once, but not much came of the promised increased illegal immigration scrutiny (and nothing was done to reduce legal immigration at all): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986#On_illegal_immigration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

toastercat 1y ago

Sorry, but this is an awful strawman argument.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

what a terrible take there's law enforcement that follows due process, and there's "law enforcement" that doesn't the former is the regular police (when they're doing their job right), the latter is the Gestapo and ICE the problem isn't so much immigration laws; it's 1) the way ICE is enforcing them, and 2) the fact that a non-trivial percentage of US businesses actually depend on that illegal immigration (which is why after political pressure, Trump made "exceptions" for certain businesses--not exceptions to the law, exceptions to its enforcement)