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Right, but that doesn't address the issues that all 320's have. In that case, the airman lied, but the guns still have those issues.

jibe 1y ago
You are begging the question, in the classic meaning of the phrase. What issue specifically? I haven't seen a claim yet that ultimately didn't boil down to: "and the trigger was pulled". Maybe the issue is that the 320 is too close to a competition trigger, and it isn't appropriate for a duty gun. But the gun has been under a microscope for years now, and no one has shown a design defect that causes the gun to fire by itself.
- stronglikedan 1y ago
  This issue: https://smokinggun.org/court-records-reveal-sig-sauer-knew-of-pistol-risks-for-years/ https://smokinggun.org/court-records-reveal-sig-sauer-knew-o...
  - jibe 1y ago
    There is nothing in there except a sensational headline. The military asked Sig to come up with every possible theoretical failure mode for the gun, and assess the risk. There is nothing about a specific flaw that would cause the gun to fire uncommanded. The document is being misrepresented here.
- vmh1928 1y ago
  The issue is the gun goes off by itself without the trigger being pulled. Remember that all this type of gun has the firing pin under spring tension all the time. The only thing keeping it from firing is a latch mechanism that is supposed to only activate when the trigger is pulled but if the mechanism is defective and too close to the edge the latch can disengage without the trigger being pulled or touched. There are numerous YT videos of this occurring.
  - jibe 1y ago
    There is no evidence of this, no reproduction of it firing without the trigger being pulled, and not even a good theory on it. The YouTube videos are involve pulling the trigger far enough to disengage the internal safeties.
    - buckle8017 1y ago
      Yes there actually is. https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI
      - jibe 1y ago
        I 100% agree it is concerning, but in this video you can't see whether the trigger is pulled or not. Holstering the gun creates a risk of the trigger being pulled. The gun goes off while it is being pushed in, which suggests the trigger is catching on something. If the gun was able to fire by itself, without the trigger being actuated, then someone should make it happen on video. Shake the crap out of it, bang on it. Take it in and out of a clear plastic holster 1000 times until the supposed defect happens.
        buckle8017 1y ago
        This is pure delusion, the p320 is dangerous garbage. Here, the police officer isn't even touching his holster. https://youtu.be/V381HkJUXH4 https://youtu.be/V381HkJUXH4
        jibe 1y ago
        It goes off as the holster he bends over and bumps into the officer next to him. The holster is clearly being moved and touched. Regardless, if there is a defect in that particular gun, they should just demonstrate it. If it isn't the holster, or something in the holster pulling the trigger, make it happen outside the holster.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  A hair trigger is unsuitable for police security use because guns are routinely drawn on people as a threat to exact compliance. A hair trigger is unsuitable for combat use because of the "errybody be muzzle sweeping errybody up in here" nature of combat. Those two uses are 99.99% of what the air force needs its pistols to do. They could give it better tolerances so it has a "good trigger" without "hair trigger" but that will cost a lot of money. Or they could give it an absurd trigger pull like duty guns had in the "good old days" but that will cost just as much money for equivalent results because you'll need to train the force more to get the same accuracy of fire. Additionally, with the fairly sloppy nature of these guns and the fundamental nature of how handguns work, it's not unforeseeable that they do get clapped out to the point of just going off if you bump the slide right as they age since they're so close to that as is. Considering how many people need to be trained/equipped and how often the air force fires sidearms in "real" situations both of these solutions are way, way, way more expensive than a few bodies.
  - jibe 1y ago
    1: It isn't a hair trigger, it is still a 6 to 6.5 pound pull. 2: The trigger is what it is, the military and police departments chose it for what was. I agree, the police in particular, should use a gun that takes more effort to fire. But don't blame Sig for this, it isn't a design flaw.
    - jakogut 1y ago
      The P320 absolutely has design and manufacturing flaws. The P250 fire control unit was shoehorned into a striker fired pistol when they should've gone back to the drawing board like they did with the P365, which doesn't have these issues. There are also manufacturing issues with intermingling parts with different geometries intended for different calibers and building guns with the wrong parts, such as installing a 10mm Auto/.45 ACP takedown safety level in a 9mm gun, or installing a metal injection molded firing pin safety that's out of spec, worn, or contributes to tolerance stacking in such a way that the gun becomes unsafe.
      - 1y ago
- lazide 1y ago
  I’ve seen multiple security videos of P320’s going off in holsters in the field with no plausible way anyone or anything could have pulled the trigger.
  - jibe 1y ago
    I understand what it looks like, but we have the guns from those incidents, and no one has looked at them an pointed to a defect, or reproduced them firing without the trigger being actuated. A gun in a holster can fire when it is moved and the holster is poorly fit, incorrectly configured, or there anything caught in it like tail of a shirt, drawstring. Also, many police have a flashlight on their pistol, which opens up space quite a bit making it easier for things to get caught inside.
    - lazide 1y ago
      The gun the FBI saw from one of the incidents definitely had defects from manufacture. And at least one of the safety devices didn’t work correctly.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - sarlalian 1y ago
      Whether it’s an explicit design flaw that allows the gun to fire with no interaction with the trigger at all, or one where the gun is prone to fire unintended when circumstances are less that ideal, and an interaction that shouldn’t cause it to fire does. Who cares. It’s perfectly reasonable for law enforcement and the military to want a higher level of safety than what is apparently possible with this handgun.
  - pnw 1y ago
    The police video where two officers are wrestling with a suspect, one officer has a large hanging key fob on the front of his belt which enters the other officers Safariland holster as they wrestle, and pulls the trigger. The range video where they are standing on the line was allegedly a modified gun with non-Sig upper and trigger.
- sleepybrett 1y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk
  - jibe 1y ago
    There is a giant screw jammed in the trigger. That disengages the internal safeties. That's not showing the gun is not safe, that is intentionally making it unsafe. That provides no insight as to whether the gun can fire uncommanded, without moving the trigger, which is the claim.
    - jakogut 1y ago
      Right, a Glock will do this too. IvanPrintsGuns on YouTube demonstrated this. https://youtu.be/r1KoSBcn2bY https://youtu.be/r1KoSBcn2bY
    - lenerdenator 1y ago
      It sort of provides insight. The argument is that there exists a combination of states and tolerances when a P320 is loaded and cocked that could, theoretically, allow the striker to impact the primer forcefully without a complete and full trigger pull, one where you don't feel the break. This could either be while the finger is on the trigger (maybe a police officer pointing it at someone who has a weapon while commanding them to drop the weapon, for example) or not (in a holster). Inserting that screw is meant to simulate a tolerance stacking issue wherein the pistol's components don't line up together in such a way as to prevent the striker from slipping past the sear. Is it wonky? Of course. Could you probably do it with other pistols? Probably. Are there police officers and servicemen/women who need a convenient excuse for their negligent discharges? Yes. Should a real investigation occur? Also yes.
    - sleepybrett 1y ago
      no if the trigger pull is near the sear line. that screw is pushing back the trigger very lightly. Friend has a p320, we replicated this test. I'd sat that unintended discharge could occur any time you finger is resting on the trigger.

jibe 1y ago

You are begging the question, in the classic meaning of the phrase. What issue specifically? I haven't seen a claim yet that ultimately didn't boil down to: "and the trigger was pulled". Maybe the issue is that the 320 is too close to a competition trigger, and it isn't appropriate for a duty gun. But the gun has been under a microscope for years now, and no one has shown a design defect that causes the gun to fire by itself.

stronglikedan 1y ago
This issue: https://smokinggun.org/court-records-reveal-sig-sauer-knew-of-pistol-risks-for-years/ https://smokinggun.org/court-records-reveal-sig-sauer-knew-o...
- jibe 1y ago
  There is nothing in there except a sensational headline. The military asked Sig to come up with every possible theoretical failure mode for the gun, and assess the risk. There is nothing about a specific flaw that would cause the gun to fire uncommanded. The document is being misrepresented here.
vmh1928 1y ago
The issue is the gun goes off by itself without the trigger being pulled. Remember that all this type of gun has the firing pin under spring tension all the time. The only thing keeping it from firing is a latch mechanism that is supposed to only activate when the trigger is pulled but if the mechanism is defective and too close to the edge the latch can disengage without the trigger being pulled or touched. There are numerous YT videos of this occurring.
- jibe 1y ago
  There is no evidence of this, no reproduction of it firing without the trigger being pulled, and not even a good theory on it. The YouTube videos are involve pulling the trigger far enough to disengage the internal safeties.
  - buckle8017 1y ago
    Yes there actually is. https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI
    - jibe 1y ago
      I 100% agree it is concerning, but in this video you can't see whether the trigger is pulled or not. Holstering the gun creates a risk of the trigger being pulled. The gun goes off while it is being pushed in, which suggests the trigger is catching on something. If the gun was able to fire by itself, without the trigger being actuated, then someone should make it happen on video. Shake the crap out of it, bang on it. Take it in and out of a clear plastic holster 1000 times until the supposed defect happens.
      - buckle8017 1y ago
        This is pure delusion, the p320 is dangerous garbage. Here, the police officer isn't even touching his holster. https://youtu.be/V381HkJUXH4 https://youtu.be/V381HkJUXH4
        jibe 1y ago
        It goes off as the holster he bends over and bumps into the officer next to him. The holster is clearly being moved and touched. Regardless, if there is a defect in that particular gun, they should just demonstrate it. If it isn't the holster, or something in the holster pulling the trigger, make it happen outside the holster.
potato3732842 1y ago
A hair trigger is unsuitable for police security use because guns are routinely drawn on people as a threat to exact compliance. A hair trigger is unsuitable for combat use because of the "errybody be muzzle sweeping errybody up in here" nature of combat. Those two uses are 99.99% of what the air force needs its pistols to do. They could give it better tolerances so it has a "good trigger" without "hair trigger" but that will cost a lot of money. Or they could give it an absurd trigger pull like duty guns had in the "good old days" but that will cost just as much money for equivalent results because you'll need to train the force more to get the same accuracy of fire. Additionally, with the fairly sloppy nature of these guns and the fundamental nature of how handguns work, it's not unforeseeable that they do get clapped out to the point of just going off if you bump the slide right as they age since they're so close to that as is. Considering how many people need to be trained/equipped and how often the air force fires sidearms in "real" situations both of these solutions are way, way, way more expensive than a few bodies.
- jibe 1y ago
  1: It isn't a hair trigger, it is still a 6 to 6.5 pound pull. 2: The trigger is what it is, the military and police departments chose it for what was. I agree, the police in particular, should use a gun that takes more effort to fire. But don't blame Sig for this, it isn't a design flaw.
  - jakogut 1y ago
    The P320 absolutely has design and manufacturing flaws. The P250 fire control unit was shoehorned into a striker fired pistol when they should've gone back to the drawing board like they did with the P365, which doesn't have these issues. There are also manufacturing issues with intermingling parts with different geometries intended for different calibers and building guns with the wrong parts, such as installing a 10mm Auto/.45 ACP takedown safety level in a 9mm gun, or installing a metal injection molded firing pin safety that's out of spec, worn, or contributes to tolerance stacking in such a way that the gun becomes unsafe.
    - 1y ago
lazide 1y ago
I’ve seen multiple security videos of P320’s going off in holsters in the field with no plausible way anyone or anything could have pulled the trigger.
- jibe 1y ago
  I understand what it looks like, but we have the guns from those incidents, and no one has looked at them an pointed to a defect, or reproduced them firing without the trigger being actuated. A gun in a holster can fire when it is moved and the holster is poorly fit, incorrectly configured, or there anything caught in it like tail of a shirt, drawstring. Also, many police have a flashlight on their pistol, which opens up space quite a bit making it easier for things to get caught inside.
  - lazide 1y ago
    The gun the FBI saw from one of the incidents definitely had defects from manufacture. And at least one of the safety devices didn’t work correctly.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - sarlalian 1y ago
    Whether it’s an explicit design flaw that allows the gun to fire with no interaction with the trigger at all, or one where the gun is prone to fire unintended when circumstances are less that ideal, and an interaction that shouldn’t cause it to fire does. Who cares. It’s perfectly reasonable for law enforcement and the military to want a higher level of safety than what is apparently possible with this handgun.
- pnw 1y ago
  The police video where two officers are wrestling with a suspect, one officer has a large hanging key fob on the front of his belt which enters the other officers Safariland holster as they wrestle, and pulls the trigger. The range video where they are standing on the line was allegedly a modified gun with non-Sig upper and trigger.
sleepybrett 1y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk
- jibe 1y ago
  There is a giant screw jammed in the trigger. That disengages the internal safeties. That's not showing the gun is not safe, that is intentionally making it unsafe. That provides no insight as to whether the gun can fire uncommanded, without moving the trigger, which is the claim.
  - jakogut 1y ago
    Right, a Glock will do this too. IvanPrintsGuns on YouTube demonstrated this. https://youtu.be/r1KoSBcn2bY https://youtu.be/r1KoSBcn2bY
  - lenerdenator 1y ago
    It sort of provides insight. The argument is that there exists a combination of states and tolerances when a P320 is loaded and cocked that could, theoretically, allow the striker to impact the primer forcefully without a complete and full trigger pull, one where you don't feel the break. This could either be while the finger is on the trigger (maybe a police officer pointing it at someone who has a weapon while commanding them to drop the weapon, for example) or not (in a holster). Inserting that screw is meant to simulate a tolerance stacking issue wherein the pistol's components don't line up together in such a way as to prevent the striker from slipping past the sear. Is it wonky? Of course. Could you probably do it with other pistols? Probably. Are there police officers and servicemen/women who need a convenient excuse for their negligent discharges? Yes. Should a real investigation occur? Also yes.
  - sleepybrett 1y ago
    no if the trigger pull is near the sear line. that screw is pushing back the trigger very lightly. Friend has a p320, we replicated this test. I'd sat that unintended discharge could occur any time you finger is resting on the trigger.