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I don't like linking to YouTube videos, but this one is a must-see if you're interested in the Sig debacle: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk https

I don't like linking to YouTube videos, but this one is a must-see if you're interested in the Sig debacle: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOMQOtOQoPk Handgun design doesn't really get any worse than that.

4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
This particular video doesn't quite show anything out of the ordinary. If you pull the trigger past the wall then force it into firing with sympathetic movement of different parts of the pistol. The P320 has had many reported issues but having it go off when you pull the trigger is actually intended behavior. More information available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1KoSBcn2bY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1KoSBcn2bY
- A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
  I disagree. The comment below the video actually gets it right, emphasis added: > "The shear amount of movement in the trigger it takes on the Glock PLUS the fact the trigger safety has to depressed lends it self to make this scenario extremely extremely unlikely to happen from jostling. Which is the exact opposite for the 320. Tiny amount of movement needed, way more slop in the gun as a whole and no trigger safety all lends itself to be way more likely to happen from jostling. Thats the argument."
  - WillPostForFood 1y ago
    way more likely to happen from jostling. Thats the argument. The above claim is most likely true: it is easy to pull the trigger accidentally on the Sig. But that isn't the argument. People are claiming it will fire uncommanded. The video is misleading because he is partially pulling the trigger, which deactivates the internal safety mechanisms. It is the clickbait equivalent of a video claiming Rust is not memory safe, that starts by showing a Rust program running and causing a BSOD. Then deep in the video, what they show is he wrote a bunch of explicit unsafe code.
    - kryogen1c 1y ago
      > The video is misleading because he is partially pulling the trigger, which deactivates the internal safety mechanisms. While true that it is misleading, i still think it's fundamentally correct. You do not expect your firearm to discharge if someone bumps you while the trigger has the slack taken out.
      - 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
        Pulling the trigger deactivates the firing-pin safety and drop-safety on a Glock as well. And by the time you have pulled the trigger to the wall you've already disabled the trigger-blade safety. This holds true on basically every modern handgun that has such a mechanism (striker or hammer-fired). The Sig P320 probably has more issues than the originally discovered drop-safety deficiencies, and Sig US has been very quick to deny-deny-deny. But firing when you pull the trigger is not an issue.
        kryogen1c 1y ago
        > But firing when you pull the trigger is not an issue. This is not a fair and accurate phrasing of the problem. Triggers have a breakpoint in the pull at which you expect them to fire. Discharging by touching the slide, even while the trigger is depressed, is not expected or acceptable.
        4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
        If you pull the trigger far enough to disengage the drop safety and firing pin safety block, then it is entirely possible to discharge the weapon by applying force to the slide, shaking the weapon, or the like. Pulling the trigger disables the internal safeties that would prevent this. This is not unique to the P320, Sig, or even striker-fired handguns in general. This could just as easily apply to a CZ-75B. There is no magic that keeps the striker from dropping until the shooter has their heart set on discharging a round. There is a reason that rule #3 of firearm safety is to not put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot
  - 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
    Having owned both a P320 and a Glock and handled multiple, "slop" in the guns out of the box are comparable. They're both mass-produced, polymer frame, striker-fired hand guns, not hand-finished 1911's. If you put a few thousand rounds through either it will generate slide and frame rail wear. After this, either would have slightly more "slop" between the frame and the slide. The glock trigger-dingus can make unintended discharges less likely because it requires an object to go into the trigger guard. But the WyomingGunProject video shows someone putting something in the trigger guard, pulling the trigger past the wall with sympathetic movement, then firing the gun. Not the result of "jostling". This isn't to say there aren't P320's that couldn't fire uncommanded but the WyomingGunProject video is not the proverbial "smoking gun". The exact cause is, at this time, not publicly known.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
      I will admit that I am somewhat uncomfortable in how striker-type has become defacto standard pushed in most conversations I had around these. I understand the argument for it, but when it comes to firearms, convenience should not be a priority. A person handling it must be certain that it will perform as expected ( heavens know there is enough variation with plain 1911 ).
  - some_random 1y ago
    So, is your claim that an object in the holster is pulling the trigger causing the discharge? Congratulations, that's SIG's argument and if it was true it would exonerate them.
    - 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
      That’s not my claim. I don’t really trust Sig’s ass-covering on the numerous reported issues. But in the case of the demonstration in the Wyoming Gun Project video, it is literally the case that an object is being jammed into the trigger until all internal safeties are disabled, then flex and sympathetic movement is applied until the gun goes off. There may exist a more damning explanation of what has caused the reported uncommanded discharges but that video isn’t it
ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago
not clicking that at work but if it's the video I think it is, I'm not sure how it applies to the DoD's M17/18 since those have a frame safety.
- some_random 1y ago
  Oh it's very simple, you have to deactivate the safety to pull the trigger, which is what everyone decided to freak out about apparently.
some_random 1y ago
I'm sorry but no, that video is absolutely terrible and honestly pretty embarrassing. Pulling the trigger causes the gun to fire, that's the entire point, and when the sear is in the frame and striker in the slide, wiggling the two will cause a change in sear engagement.

4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago

This particular video doesn't quite show anything out of the ordinary. If you pull the trigger past the wall then force it into firing with sympathetic movement of different parts of the pistol. The P320 has had many reported issues but having it go off when you pull the trigger is actually intended behavior. More information available here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1KoSBcn2bY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1KoSBcn2bY

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
I disagree. The comment below the video actually gets it right, emphasis added: > "The shear amount of movement in the trigger it takes on the Glock PLUS the fact the trigger safety has to depressed lends it self to make this scenario extremely extremely unlikely to happen from jostling. Which is the exact opposite for the 320. Tiny amount of movement needed, way more slop in the gun as a whole and no trigger safety all lends itself to be way more likely to happen from jostling. Thats the argument."
- WillPostForFood 1y ago
  way more likely to happen from jostling. Thats the argument. The above claim is most likely true: it is easy to pull the trigger accidentally on the Sig. But that isn't the argument. People are claiming it will fire uncommanded. The video is misleading because he is partially pulling the trigger, which deactivates the internal safety mechanisms. It is the clickbait equivalent of a video claiming Rust is not memory safe, that starts by showing a Rust program running and causing a BSOD. Then deep in the video, what they show is he wrote a bunch of explicit unsafe code.
  - kryogen1c 1y ago
    > The video is misleading because he is partially pulling the trigger, which deactivates the internal safety mechanisms. While true that it is misleading, i still think it's fundamentally correct. You do not expect your firearm to discharge if someone bumps you while the trigger has the slack taken out.
    - 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
      Pulling the trigger deactivates the firing-pin safety and drop-safety on a Glock as well. And by the time you have pulled the trigger to the wall you've already disabled the trigger-blade safety. This holds true on basically every modern handgun that has such a mechanism (striker or hammer-fired). The Sig P320 probably has more issues than the originally discovered drop-safety deficiencies, and Sig US has been very quick to deny-deny-deny. But firing when you pull the trigger is not an issue.
      - kryogen1c 1y ago
        > But firing when you pull the trigger is not an issue. This is not a fair and accurate phrasing of the problem. Triggers have a breakpoint in the pull at which you expect them to fire. Discharging by touching the slide, even while the trigger is depressed, is not expected or acceptable.
        4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
        If you pull the trigger far enough to disengage the drop safety and firing pin safety block, then it is entirely possible to discharge the weapon by applying force to the slide, shaking the weapon, or the like. Pulling the trigger disables the internal safeties that would prevent this. This is not unique to the P320, Sig, or even striker-fired handguns in general. This could just as easily apply to a CZ-75B. There is no magic that keeps the striker from dropping until the shooter has their heart set on discharging a round. There is a reason that rule #3 of firearm safety is to not put your finger on the trigger until you're ready to shoot
- 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
  Having owned both a P320 and a Glock and handled multiple, "slop" in the guns out of the box are comparable. They're both mass-produced, polymer frame, striker-fired hand guns, not hand-finished 1911's. If you put a few thousand rounds through either it will generate slide and frame rail wear. After this, either would have slightly more "slop" between the frame and the slide. The glock trigger-dingus can make unintended discharges less likely because it requires an object to go into the trigger guard. But the WyomingGunProject video shows someone putting something in the trigger guard, pulling the trigger past the wall with sympathetic movement, then firing the gun. Not the result of "jostling". This isn't to say there aren't P320's that couldn't fire uncommanded but the WyomingGunProject video is not the proverbial "smoking gun". The exact cause is, at this time, not publicly known.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
    I will admit that I am somewhat uncomfortable in how striker-type has become defacto standard pushed in most conversations I had around these. I understand the argument for it, but when it comes to firearms, convenience should not be a priority. A person handling it must be certain that it will perform as expected ( heavens know there is enough variation with plain 1911 ).
- some_random 1y ago
  So, is your claim that an object in the holster is pulling the trigger causing the discharge? Congratulations, that's SIG's argument and if it was true it would exonerate them.
  - 4MOAisgoodenuf 1y ago
    That’s not my claim. I don’t really trust Sig’s ass-covering on the numerous reported issues. But in the case of the demonstration in the Wyoming Gun Project video, it is literally the case that an object is being jammed into the trigger until all internal safeties are disabled, then flex and sympathetic movement is applied until the gun goes off. There may exist a more damning explanation of what has caused the reported uncommanded discharges but that video isn’t it

ahmeneeroe-v2 1y ago

not clicking that at work but if it's the video I think it is, I'm not sure how it applies to the DoD's M17/18 since those have a frame safety.

some_random 1y ago
Oh it's very simple, you have to deactivate the safety to pull the trigger, which is what everyone decided to freak out about apparently.

some_random 1y ago

I'm sorry but no, that video is absolutely terrible and honestly pretty embarrassing. Pulling the trigger causes the gun to fire, that's the entire point, and when the sear is in the frame and striker in the slide, wiggling the two will cause a change in sear engagement.