7 ms·

They lost? They may have recently lost a battle, but overall have been winning the war since 1980.

jerf 18y ago
Step One: Define "conservatism". No, seriously, stop for a moment and define it to yourself. I want you to come up with a serious definition, too, not "those assholes who hate darkies" or something like that. Come up with what they stand for, what they stand against, a serious definition of some kind. Step Two: Determine if we've actually had a conservative government for any period of time since 1980 that have actually acted on the definition of conservatism. I've posted this as a meta-message because you can get different answers depending on what perfectly legitimate definition of conservatism you adopt. If you define it solely in terms of reactionary defense of the status quo, conservatism is politically dead, since the status quo has been, is, and will continue to never apply in our world. It moves too fast for that. If you define it as isomorphic to the Republican party, then it has been in charge and is discredited... but I don't find this a very good definition, as we already have a perfectly good word for "Republican". If you define it as involving cutting taxes, it has had some success, although only some. If you define it in terms of libertarianism, i.e., "smaller government", then it has not been in charge since 1980. We've actually not tried "smaller government" in a long time. It's hard to even identify a year since 1980 where it was winning the war, let alone claim it has been winning since then. "Conservative" and "liberal" are really such ill-defined constructs that using them seriously without defining them almost always indicates weak thinking. For example (and I'm not saying mattmaroon said this, it's just an example) claiming that "conservatives have been in charge since 1980, conservatives stand for small government, conservatives have been a failure therefore small government is a failure" is very bad logic because the meaning of "conservative" keeps shifting throughout the argument. Social conservatism has had a much better run than fiscal conservatism or small government, which has had almost no traction since the New Deal or even earlier. A couple of years of exception, but even those years it was mostly lip service followed by expanded government.
- arockwell 18y ago
  A conservative is someone you don't like (if you're a liberal). Other than that, I have no idea what the hell it means (vice versa for the term liberal). Political discussions are tough to have because the terminology has become so meaningless. Far too often, I see people slap a political label on a person or policy and the label is intended to be derogatory rather than informative.
- Retric 18y ago
  "conservative" is about far more than just taxes. If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party. The modern use of the term has far more to do with preserving the status quo from 100 years ago than it does about any specific ideology. EX: The ban on abortion, the free market pre great depression, "small government", banning stem cell research, anti environmentalism, which really started around the great depression. I expect the "conservative" movement in 100 years will look back at the good old days of the hippie movement with longing.
  - jerf 18y ago
    '"conservative" is about far more than just taxes.' I explain why there's a lot of definitions of the term, and your response is to... explain why one of my lines was wrong? 'If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party.' Do you live the in the same world I do? Now, you might think I'm going to take exception to the idea that (D) spends less than (R). In fact, my incredulity is prompted by your "by far the more". From where I sit, neither party seems to have met a spending bill they didn't like, except briefly by the (R)s in the 90s which they quickly seem to have gotten over. (And whatever credibility the (D)s may have had on this issue just got squandered these last couple of weeks, with this "stimulus" bill that, even if you accept Keynesian economic theory, won't do a damn thing to help.) That's actually my point, there's significant things called "conservative" that haven't been tried lately, small government merely being at the top of the list. (Oh, and part of the reason I said "make a real definition" is to head off things like saying conservatives are "anti-environment". Nobody of any importance is "pro-pollution". (I don't know of anybody, but it's best to be careful with absolute statements.) They just disagree about priorities or effects. That sort of thinking leads to letting demagogues make up your mind for you.)
byrneseyeview 18y ago
How much smaller and less intrusive has the government gotten since 1980?
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Well, it's lowered the tax rate. Social conservatives have had their way with us though. They're one Republican president away from repealing Roe.
  - byrneseyeview 18y ago
    I think it's changed the way it collects taxes, but as far as I know, government spending is still up, even adjusted for inflation. So it's hard for me to see that conservatives are so successful that they have continued to lose, just not as fast as they used to.

jerf 18y ago

Step One: Define "conservatism". No, seriously, stop for a moment and define it to yourself. I want you to come up with a serious definition, too, not "those assholes who hate darkies" or something like that. Come up with what they stand for, what they stand against, a serious definition of some kind. Step Two: Determine if we've actually had a conservative government for any period of time since 1980 that have actually acted on the definition of conservatism. I've posted this as a meta-message because you can get different answers depending on what perfectly legitimate definition of conservatism you adopt. If you define it solely in terms of reactionary defense of the status quo, conservatism is politically dead, since the status quo has been, is, and will continue to never apply in our world. It moves too fast for that. If you define it as isomorphic to the Republican party, then it has been in charge and is discredited... but I don't find this a very good definition, as we already have a perfectly good word for "Republican". If you define it as involving cutting taxes, it has had some success, although only some. If you define it in terms of libertarianism, i.e., "smaller government", then it has not been in charge since 1980. We've actually not tried "smaller government" in a long time. It's hard to even identify a year since 1980 where it was winning the war, let alone claim it has been winning since then. "Conservative" and "liberal" are really such ill-defined constructs that using them seriously without defining them almost always indicates weak thinking. For example (and I'm not saying mattmaroon said this, it's just an example) claiming that "conservatives have been in charge since 1980, conservatives stand for small government, conservatives have been a failure therefore small government is a failure" is very bad logic because the meaning of "conservative" keeps shifting throughout the argument. Social conservatism has had a much better run than fiscal conservatism or small government, which has had almost no traction since the New Deal or even earlier. A couple of years of exception, but even those years it was mostly lip service followed by expanded government.

arockwell 18y ago
A conservative is someone you don't like (if you're a liberal). Other than that, I have no idea what the hell it means (vice versa for the term liberal). Political discussions are tough to have because the terminology has become so meaningless. Far too often, I see people slap a political label on a person or policy and the label is intended to be derogatory rather than informative.
Retric 18y ago
"conservative" is about far more than just taxes. If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party. The modern use of the term has far more to do with preserving the status quo from 100 years ago than it does about any specific ideology. EX: The ban on abortion, the free market pre great depression, "small government", banning stem cell research, anti environmentalism, which really started around the great depression. I expect the "conservative" movement in 100 years will look back at the good old days of the hippie movement with longing.
- jerf 18y ago
  '"conservative" is about far more than just taxes.' I explain why there's a lot of definitions of the term, and your response is to... explain why one of my lines was wrong? 'If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party.' Do you live the in the same world I do? Now, you might think I'm going to take exception to the idea that (D) spends less than (R). In fact, my incredulity is prompted by your "by far the more". From where I sit, neither party seems to have met a spending bill they didn't like, except briefly by the (R)s in the 90s which they quickly seem to have gotten over. (And whatever credibility the (D)s may have had on this issue just got squandered these last couple of weeks, with this "stimulus" bill that, even if you accept Keynesian economic theory, won't do a damn thing to help.) That's actually my point, there's significant things called "conservative" that haven't been tried lately, small government merely being at the top of the list. (Oh, and part of the reason I said "make a real definition" is to head off things like saying conservatives are "anti-environment". Nobody of any importance is "pro-pollution". (I don't know of anybody, but it's best to be careful with absolute statements.) They just disagree about priorities or effects. That sort of thinking leads to letting demagogues make up your mind for you.)

byrneseyeview 18y ago

How much smaller and less intrusive has the government gotten since 1980?

mattmaroon 18y ago
Well, it's lowered the tax rate. Social conservatives have had their way with us though. They're one Republican president away from repealing Roe.
- byrneseyeview 18y ago
  I think it's changed the way it collects taxes, but as far as I know, government spending is still up, even adjusted for inflation. So it's hard for me to see that conservatives are so successful that they have continued to lose, just not as fast as they used to.