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You can opt out, but the fact that it's opt-in by default and made to look like a simple T/C update prompt leaves a sour taste in my mouth. The five year retent
by troad 1y ago
You can opt out, but the fact that it's opt-in by default and made to look like a simple T/C update prompt leaves a sour taste in my mouth. The five year retention period seems... excessive. I wonder if they've buried anything else objectionable in the new terms.
It was the kick in the pants I needed to cancel my subscription.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- perihelions 1y agoWhat are you replacing it with?
- ivape 1y agoI like think using OpenRouter is better, but there’s absolutely no guarantee from any of the individual providers with respect to privacy and no logging.
- troad 1y agoTwo weeks left in the sub to figure it out, but I'm not yet sure. I was never all in on all the tooling, I mostly used it as smart search (e.g. ImageMagick incantations) and for trivial scripting that I couldn't be bothered writing myself, so I might just stick to whatever comes with Kagi, see if that doesn't cover me.
- perihelions 1y agoHow does Kagi (claim that they) enforce privacy rights on the major LLM providers? Have they negotiated a special contract? I'm looking at > "When you use the Assistant by Kagi, your data is never used to train AI models (not by us or by the LLM providers), and no account information is shared with the LLM providers. By default, threads are deleted after 24 hours of inactivity. This behavior can be adjusted in the settings." https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html#privacy https://help.kagi.com/kagi/ai/assistant.html#privacy And trying to reconcile those claims with the instant thread. Anthropic is listed as one of their back-end providers. Is that data retained for five years on Anthropic's end, or 24 hours? Is that data used for training Anthropic models, or has Anthropic agreed in writing not to, for Kagi clients?
- vinnyorvinny 1y agoThere is an option to opt out right? So I assume they just make sure to always opt out.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- FergusArgyll 1y agoThey are using llm's through the API where it's the b2b world and you can get privacy
- fnordlord 1y agoI'm mostly replying because I was truly using it for an ImageMagick incantation yesterday. I use the API rather than chat, if that's an option for you. I put $20 into it every few months and it mostly does what I need. I'm using Raycast for quick and dirty questions and AnythingLLM for longer conversations.
- kordlessagain 1y ago> It was the kick in the pants I needed to cancel my subscription. As if barely two 9s of uptime wasn't enough.
- JohnnyMarcone 1y agoI got a pop-up when I opened the app explaining the change and an option to opt out. That seems very transparent to me.
- cube00 1y ago> That seems very transparent to me. Grabbing users during start up with the less privacy focused option preselected isn't being "very transparent" They could have forced the user to make a choice or defaulted to not training on their content but they instead they just can't help themselves.
- elashri 1y ago> That seems very transparent to me Implicit consent is not transparent and should be illegal in all situations. I can't tell you that unless you opt out, You have agreed to let me rent you apartment. You can say analogy is not straightforward comparable but the overall idea is the same. If we enter a contract for me to fix your broken windows, I cannot extend it to do anything else in the house I see fit with Implicit consent.
- mystraline 1y agoAs a real world counterexample, medical in the USA does this shit all the time. Local office will do a blood draw, send it to a 3rd party analysis which isn't covered by insurance, then bill you full. And you had NO contractual relationship with the testing company. Same scam. And its all because our government is completely captured by companies and oligopoly. Our government hasn't represented the people in a long time.
- handoflixue 1y agoHow is it "implicit" to click "I agree" to a large pop-up that takes up most of the screen?
- danaris 1y agoCourts in various jurisdictions have found clickwrap agreements to be generally only valid for what one would expect to be common provisions within such agreements. Essentially, because they are presented in a form that is so easy to bypass and so very common in our modern online life, provisions that give up too much to the service provider or would be too unusual or unexpected to find in such an agreement are unenforceable.
- I_am_tiberius 1y ago"five year retention". If it's in a model once, it's there forever.
- Hnrobert42 1y agoIs that true? Do models get rebuilt from scratch each time or do they get iterated on?
- I_am_tiberius 1y agoI believe the big models currently get built from scratch (with random starting weights). That wasn't my point though. I meant a model created once, might be used for a very long time. Maybe they even release the weights at one point ("open source").
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- whimsicalism 1y agoyes, it’s a very big loophole. and if it’s a generative model, you can just launder the data through synthetic generation/distillation to future models
- disconcision 1y agothis is somewhat true but i'm not sure how load bearing it is. for one, i think it's going to be a while until 'we asked the model what bob said' is as admissible as the result of a database query
- demarq 1y agoAre you sure the opt out isn’t only training? The retention does not seem affected by the toggle.
- jasona123 1y agoFrom the PR update: https://www.anthropic.com/news/updates-to-our-consumer-terms https://www.anthropic.com/news/updates-to-our-consumer-terms “If you do not choose to provide your data for model training, you’ll continue with our existing 30-day data retention period.“ From the support page: https://privacy.anthropic.com/en/articles/10023548-how-long-do-you-store-my-data https://privacy.anthropic.com/en/articles/10023548-how-long-... “If you choose not to allow us to use your chats and coding sessions to improve Claude, your chats will be retained in our back-end storage systems for up to 30 days.”
- zenmaster10665 1y agoit seems really badly designed or maybe it is meant to be confusing. It does not make it clear that the two are linked together, and you have to "accept" the both together even though there is only a toggle on the "help us make the model better" item.
- episteme 1y agoWhat will you use instead? I’m finding Claude the best experience since ChatGPT 5 is so slow and not any better answers than 4.
- teekert 1y agoGranted, it is a stretch and not near the features of Claude (no code etc), but at least Proton's Lumo [0] is very privacy oriented. I have to admit, I've used it a bit over the last days and still reactivated my Claude pro subscription today so... Let's say it's ok for casual stuff? Also useful for casual coding questions. So if you care about it, it's an option. [0] https://lumo.proton.me/ https://lumo.proton.me/
- javierluraschi 1y agohttps://grok.com https://grok.com
- ehnto 1y agoFrom the frypan into the fire. I think the reality, proven by history and even just this short five years, is no company will hold onto their ethics in this space. This should surprise no one since the first step of the enterprise is hoovering up the worlds data without permission.
- Arubis 1y agoWorse by every measure.
- weberer 1y agoWhat metrics are you looking at? Grok 4 outperforms Claude 4 Opus in the Artificial Analysis Intelligence Index. https://artificialanalysis.ai/leaderboards/models https://artificialanalysis.ai/leaderboards/models
- mac-attack 1y agoWhat sane person would downgrade to Grok
- smallerfish 1y agoSettings > Privacy > Privacy Settings
- kossTKR 1y agoi don't see any setting related to this? just: Export data Shared chats Location metadata Review and update terms and conditions I'm in the EU, maybe that's helping me?
- croes 1y agoHave you clicked "Review and update terms and conditions"? It's part of the update
- kossTKR 1y agoOh i see thanks. That's a dark design pattern, hiding stuff like that. No one cares about anything else but they have lots of superflous text and they are calling it "help us get better", blah blah, it's "help us earn more money and potentially sell or leak your extremely private info", so they are lying. Considering cancelling my subscription right this moment. I hope EU at leat considers banning or extreme-fining companies trying to retroactively use peoples extremely private data like this, it's completely over the line.
- klabb3 1y agoEU or not, it baffled me that people don't see this glaring conflict of interest. AI companies both produce the model and rent out inference. In other words, you're expecting that the company that (a) desperately crave your data the most and (b) that also happen to collect large amounts of high quality data from you will simply not use it. It's like asking a child to keep your candy safe. I'd love to live in a society where laws could effectively regulate these things. I would also like a Pony.
- kossTKR 1y ago
- wzdd 1y agoEverywhere else in Anthropic's interface, yes/no switches show blue when enabled and black when disabled. In the box they're showing about this change the slider shows grey in both states: visit it in preferences to see the difference! It's not just disappointing but also kind of sad that someone went to the effort to do this.
- senko 1y agoJust did and it behaves as expected for me in the Android app (ie. not the dark pattern you described)
- BalinKing 1y agoI can confirm it's grey on both sides on the website.
- tln 1y agoI get blue (on) / black (off) on the website. Or blue / white in light mode. https://claude.ai/settings/data-privacy-controls https://claude.ai/settings/data-privacy-controls It was easy to not opt-in, I got prompted before I saw any of this. I think they should keep the opt-in behavior past Sept 28 personally.
- IAmGraydon 1y agoThey’re likely A/B testing the interface change, which is why people are getting inconsistent results
- riz_ 1y agoThis is probably because there are laws in some countries that restrict how these buttons/switches can look (think cookie banners, where sometimes there is a huge green button to accept, and a tiny greyed out text somewhere for the settings).
- 1y ago
- merelysounds 1y ago> opt-in by default Nitpicking: “opt in by default” doesn’t exist, it’s either “opt in”, or “opt out”; this is “opt out”. By definition an “opt out” setting is selected by default.
- benterix 1y agoThis is not nitpicking, this is a sane reaction to someone modifying the meaning of words on the fly.
- klabb3 1y agoTo be fair it trips people up all the time. Even precise terminology isn't great if people misuse it. Maybe it would have been better to just use "enabled by default".
- troad 1y agoThe original meaning of sane is "physically healthy". Its usual modern meaning is "mentally healthy". You're using it to mean "reasonable". At which exact point is language prohibited from evolving, and why it super coincidentally the exact years you learnt it?
- danans 1y ago> At which exact point is language prohibited from evolving Never? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change
- monegator 1y agoI'm super duper sure that my data won't be stored and eventually used if i opt out
- Joker_vD 1y ago> You can opt out You can say that you want to opt out. What Anthropic will decide to do with your declaration is a different question.
- AlexandrB 1y agoI look forward to this setting getting turned on again "accidentally" when new models are released or the ToS is updated.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- javcasas 1y agoYou can request your data to not be used. Your request will appropriately be read and redirected to /dev/null.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ethagnawl 1y agoI wonder what happens if I don't accept the new T&C? I've been successfully dismissing an updated T&C prompt in a popular group messaging application for years -- I lack the time and legal acumen to process it -- without issue. Also, for others who want to opt-out, the toggle is in the T&C modal itself.
- nicce 1y agoI tried to do that with WhatsApp and it eventually stopped working.
- layer8 1y agoThe new privacy policy automatically becomes effective on September 28, if you don’t already agree to it before. Anthropic states that “After September 28, you’ll need to make your selection on the model training setting in order to continue using Claude.”
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- energy123 1y agoHas anyone asked why OpenAI has two very separate opt-out mechanisms (one in settings, the other via a formal request that you need to lodge via their privacy or platform page)? That always seemed likely to me to be hiding a technicality that allows them to train on some forms of user data.
- nicce 1y agoOpenAIs temporary chat still advertises that chats are stored for 30 days while there is court order that everything must be retained indefinitely. I wonder why they are not obligated to state this quite extreme retention.
- darepublic 1y agoit's almost like this multi billion dollar company is misanthropic, despite their platitudes. Should I not hold my breath on Anthropic helping facilitate "an era of AI abundance for all"? (To quote a rejected PR applicant to Anthropic from the front page)
- jmward01 1y agoThe 5 year is the real kicker. Over the next 5 years I find it doubtful that they won't keep modifying their TOS and presenting that opt out 'option' so that all it will take is one accidental click and they have all your data from the start. Also, what is to stop them from removing the opt out? Nothing says they have to give that option. 4 years and 364 days from now TOS change with no opt out and a retention increase to 10 years. By then the privacy decline will have already have been so huge nobody will even notice that this 'option' was never even real.
- speckx 1y agoI cancelled my subscription as well because of the opt-in by default.