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Disclaimer: I am ethnically Chinese but grew up outside the country. Let me ask you an interesting question. What do you consider as freedom? The ability to ow

Disclaimer: I am ethnically Chinese but grew up outside the country. Let me ask you an interesting question. What do you consider as freedom? The ability to own a gun or the ability to walk outside without ever having the chance of randomly shot dead? Because most Chinese people believe the latter is freedom while most Americans believe the former is freedom. Since most people on HN are Americans, freedom is defined as the former here.

Sammi 1y ago
European here: There are sooooo many other freedoms you aren't considering at all. Typical American exceptionalism. "American values are the only values". I am saying so with a gentle snobbish roll of the eyes.
- aurareturn 1y ago
  Your statement is quite ironic if you didn't mean any sarcasm. :)
  - Sammi 1y ago
    Yeah criticizing the dominant culture when you're not the the dominant culture is kinda the definition of snobbish. And calling it American Exceptionalism is missing the mechanism behind it completely. Every hegemonic culture sees themselves as exceptional. And Europeans did too back when we could get away with it. Dominant cultures don't care when they project onto others.
Agraillo 1y ago
Let's start with the Freedom House index [1] Finland 100/100 ..... United States 84/100 ..... China 9/100 ...... Turkmenistan 1/100 Before claiming a hidden agenda or conflicts of interest of those behind the organization, first evaluate their methodology [2]. You may even agree with the methodology but argue that the actual numbers were calculated incorrectly > the ability to walk outside without ever having the chance of randomly shot dead This is a good measure of risk perception, and you can even use it as one of the freedom scores. The problem is that it is hard to measure. For example, consider if this measure is based on a poll: if an act of terrorism occurs just before the poll is taken, the score will definitely drop. However, in countries where such news is heavily suppressed (e.g., the former USSR), the scores may appear perfect. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores [2] https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world...
- aurareturn 1y ago
  The problem is that it is hard to measure. I feel it almost every day for myself and for my family in the US. I don't feel it at all when I visit China, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. Does that help? I recently saw someone say that in the US, you have freedom of speech but nothing changes. In China, you don't have freedom of speech but things change.
  - Agraillo 1y ago
    > I feel it almost every day for myself and for my family in the US Based on your use of the word 'fill,' the Gallup World Poll seems like a more appropriate ranking because it comes directly from the people. Even your dissatisfaction as a resident of the US is likely reflected in their analysis [1]. However, the situation in China is somewhat more complicated at present. Telephone and face-to-face interviews were permitted until 2023 [2], but the 2023 survey already relied only on web interviews, which correlates with reports of Gallup withdrawing from China [3]. This likely brings us back to the question of different faces of freedom - specifically, the ability to conduct surveys or polls without being accused of distorting the country’s image. Both Freedom House and Gallup methodologies may be flawed, but without them or similar we would have to rely solely on anecdotal evidence, which is insufficient imho [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/660440/land-free-fewer-americans-agree.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/660440/land-free-fewer-american... [2] https://www.gallup.com/file/services/177797/World_Poll_Dataset_Details_011725.pdf https://www.gallup.com/file/services/177797/World_Poll_Datas... [3] https://archive.ph/v5F9a https://archive.ph/v5F9a (US consultancy Gallup withdraws from China (FT))
    - aurareturn 1y ago
      My point, in case it wasn't obvious, is that freedom is not the same to everyone. Being able to own a gun will give you a higher score but having a chance of being shot randomly just by stepping outside is the opposite of freedom.
psychoslave 1y ago
We have freedom and safety when we are able to carry a gun and make a walk as we please whenever we want with very low risk for our life, and we can also chose not to hold a gun and not to make a walk at moment defined by other without any change in threat for our life.

Sammi 1y ago

European here: There are sooooo many other freedoms you aren't considering at all. Typical American exceptionalism. "American values are the only values". I am saying so with a gentle snobbish roll of the eyes.

aurareturn 1y ago
Your statement is quite ironic if you didn't mean any sarcasm. :)
- Sammi 1y ago
  Yeah criticizing the dominant culture when you're not the the dominant culture is kinda the definition of snobbish. And calling it American Exceptionalism is missing the mechanism behind it completely. Every hegemonic culture sees themselves as exceptional. And Europeans did too back when we could get away with it. Dominant cultures don't care when they project onto others.

Agraillo 1y ago

Let's start with the Freedom House index [1] Finland 100/100 ..... United States 84/100 ..... China 9/100 ...... Turkmenistan 1/100 Before claiming a hidden agenda or conflicts of interest of those behind the organization, first evaluate their methodology [2]. You may even agree with the methodology but argue that the actual numbers were calculated incorrectly > the ability to walk outside without ever having the chance of randomly shot dead This is a good measure of risk perception, and you can even use it as one of the freedom scores. The problem is that it is hard to measure. For example, consider if this measure is based on a poll: if an act of terrorism occurs just before the poll is taken, the score will definitely drop. However, in countries where such news is heavily suppressed (e.g., the former USSR), the scores may appear perfect. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores https://freedomhouse.org/country/scores [2] https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world-research-methodology https://freedomhouse.org/reports/freedom-world/freedom-world...

aurareturn 1y ago
The problem is that it is hard to measure. I feel it almost every day for myself and for my family in the US. I don't feel it at all when I visit China, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan, etc. Does that help? I recently saw someone say that in the US, you have freedom of speech but nothing changes. In China, you don't have freedom of speech but things change.
- Agraillo 1y ago
  > I feel it almost every day for myself and for my family in the US Based on your use of the word 'fill,' the Gallup World Poll seems like a more appropriate ranking because it comes directly from the people. Even your dissatisfaction as a resident of the US is likely reflected in their analysis [1]. However, the situation in China is somewhat more complicated at present. Telephone and face-to-face interviews were permitted until 2023 [2], but the 2023 survey already relied only on web interviews, which correlates with reports of Gallup withdrawing from China [3]. This likely brings us back to the question of different faces of freedom - specifically, the ability to conduct surveys or polls without being accused of distorting the country’s image. Both Freedom House and Gallup methodologies may be flawed, but without them or similar we would have to rely solely on anecdotal evidence, which is insufficient imho [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/660440/land-free-fewer-americans-agree.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/660440/land-free-fewer-american... [2] https://www.gallup.com/file/services/177797/World_Poll_Dataset_Details_011725.pdf https://www.gallup.com/file/services/177797/World_Poll_Datas... [3] https://archive.ph/v5F9a https://archive.ph/v5F9a (US consultancy Gallup withdraws from China (FT))
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    My point, in case it wasn't obvious, is that freedom is not the same to everyone. Being able to own a gun will give you a higher score but having a chance of being shot randomly just by stepping outside is the opposite of freedom.

psychoslave 1y ago

We have freedom and safety when we are able to carry a gun and make a walk as we please whenever we want with very low risk for our life, and we can also chose not to hold a gun and not to make a walk at moment defined by other without any change in threat for our life.