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Long live libertarianism. Conservatism was only ever about small government by accident - they were just for mindlessly preserving the status quo. Which is why

by axiom 18y ago

Long live libertarianism. Conservatism was only ever about small government by accident - they were just for mindlessly preserving the status quo. Which is why they lost.

mattmaroon 18y ago
They lost? They may have recently lost a battle, but overall have been winning the war since 1980.
- jerf 18y ago
  Step One: Define "conservatism". No, seriously, stop for a moment and define it to yourself. I want you to come up with a serious definition, too, not "those assholes who hate darkies" or something like that. Come up with what they stand for, what they stand against, a serious definition of some kind. Step Two: Determine if we've actually had a conservative government for any period of time since 1980 that have actually acted on the definition of conservatism. I've posted this as a meta-message because you can get different answers depending on what perfectly legitimate definition of conservatism you adopt. If you define it solely in terms of reactionary defense of the status quo, conservatism is politically dead, since the status quo has been, is, and will continue to never apply in our world. It moves too fast for that. If you define it as isomorphic to the Republican party, then it has been in charge and is discredited... but I don't find this a very good definition, as we already have a perfectly good word for "Republican". If you define it as involving cutting taxes, it has had some success, although only some. If you define it in terms of libertarianism, i.e., "smaller government", then it has not been in charge since 1980. We've actually not tried "smaller government" in a long time. It's hard to even identify a year since 1980 where it was winning the war, let alone claim it has been winning since then. "Conservative" and "liberal" are really such ill-defined constructs that using them seriously without defining them almost always indicates weak thinking. For example (and I'm not saying mattmaroon said this, it's just an example) claiming that "conservatives have been in charge since 1980, conservatives stand for small government, conservatives have been a failure therefore small government is a failure" is very bad logic because the meaning of "conservative" keeps shifting throughout the argument. Social conservatism has had a much better run than fiscal conservatism or small government, which has had almost no traction since the New Deal or even earlier. A couple of years of exception, but even those years it was mostly lip service followed by expanded government.
  - arockwell 18y ago
    A conservative is someone you don't like (if you're a liberal). Other than that, I have no idea what the hell it means (vice versa for the term liberal). Political discussions are tough to have because the terminology has become so meaningless. Far too often, I see people slap a political label on a person or policy and the label is intended to be derogatory rather than informative.
  - Retric 18y ago
    "conservative" is about far more than just taxes. If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party. The modern use of the term has far more to do with preserving the status quo from 100 years ago than it does about any specific ideology. EX: The ban on abortion, the free market pre great depression, "small government", banning stem cell research, anti environmentalism, which really started around the great depression. I expect the "conservative" movement in 100 years will look back at the good old days of the hippie movement with longing.
    - jerf 18y ago
      '"conservative" is about far more than just taxes.' I explain why there's a lot of definitions of the term, and your response is to... explain why one of my lines was wrong? 'If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party.' Do you live the in the same world I do? Now, you might think I'm going to take exception to the idea that (D) spends less than (R). In fact, my incredulity is prompted by your "by far the more". From where I sit, neither party seems to have met a spending bill they didn't like, except briefly by the (R)s in the 90s which they quickly seem to have gotten over. (And whatever credibility the (D)s may have had on this issue just got squandered these last couple of weeks, with this "stimulus" bill that, even if you accept Keynesian economic theory, won't do a damn thing to help.) That's actually my point, there's significant things called "conservative" that haven't been tried lately, small government merely being at the top of the list. (Oh, and part of the reason I said "make a real definition" is to head off things like saying conservatives are "anti-environment". Nobody of any importance is "pro-pollution". (I don't know of anybody, but it's best to be careful with absolute statements.) They just disagree about priorities or effects. That sort of thinking leads to letting demagogues make up your mind for you.)
- byrneseyeview 18y ago
  How much smaller and less intrusive has the government gotten since 1980?
  - mattmaroon 18y ago
    Well, it's lowered the tax rate. Social conservatives have had their way with us though. They're one Republican president away from repealing Roe.
    - byrneseyeview 18y ago
      I think it's changed the way it collects taxes, but as far as I know, government spending is still up, even adjusted for inflation. So it's hard for me to see that conservatives are so successful that they have continued to lose, just not as fast as they used to.
dantheman 18y ago
Conservatism, was originally about allowing each state to continue as they were when forming a federal government -- it's about what the states meant the constitution to mean when they designed the government. So it should be a small federal government/states rights perspective; and these states can do anything that they want as long as their state constitution allows it.
- Retric 18y ago
  It's older than that.
jmatt 18y ago
I think this Rush Limbaugh quote does a good job summarizing modern day conservatism: We believe in individual liberty, limited government, capitalism, the rule of law, faith, a color-blind society and national security. We support school choice, enterprise zones, tax cuts, welfare reform, faith-based initiatives, political speech, homeowner rights and the war on terrorism. And at our core we embrace and celebrate the most magnificent governing document ever ratified by any nation--the U.S. Constitution. Along with the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes our God-given natural right to be free, it is the foundation on which our government is built and has enabled us to flourish as a people.^ I think ideally that is what conservatives want to stand for, though in practice it may be quite different. ^ http://www.opinionjournal.com/ac/?id=110007417 http://www.opinionjournal.com/ac/?id=110007417
- fallentimes 18y ago
  In practice it's very different to the tune of big government and using faith as a license to ignore reason.
  - jmatt 18y ago
    I'm a libertarian. I'm with you. I'm just saying it's what most conservatives believe in.
  - jmatt 18y ago
    Just read what I wrote. I think ideally that is what conservatives want to stand for, though in practice it may be quite different.
    - fallentimes 18y ago
      There's no "may" just an "is".
DanielBMarkham 18y ago
As a libertarian, I think you've misread conservatives. Conservatives believe in induction: that things that work the same way over time have a tendency to continue working the same way. That humans are basically good people but flawed. Liberals believe in experimentation: that the human spirit is basically flawed but can be perfected through the right combination of experimentation. Burke is usually claimed as the first conservative. He was mostly a shill for the ruling class in Great Britain, but, to the dismay of his adversaries, turned out to be right in a large number of his predictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke) Both terms have varied so much over the last 30 years as to almost be meaningless, however. JFK? He was for big tax cuts to spur the economy. Nixon? Froze prices. Politicians (and parties) that were "supposed" to be either conservative or liberal basically abandoned their principles whenever they thought they could get votes. People emotionally attach to the party, and then bandy about "liberal" and "conservative" as labels to shut conversation down. It has little to do with the actual philosophies of conservatism or liberalism (either classic liberalism or modern liberalism) (Sorry. Political junkie here. Couldn't resist providing the information) And long live libertarianism!

by axiom 18y ago

Long live libertarianism. Conservatism was only ever about small government by accident - they were just for mindlessly preserving the status quo. Which is why they lost.

mattmaroon 18y ago

They lost? They may have recently lost a battle, but overall have been winning the war since 1980.

jerf 18y ago
Step One: Define "conservatism". No, seriously, stop for a moment and define it to yourself. I want you to come up with a serious definition, too, not "those assholes who hate darkies" or something like that. Come up with what they stand for, what they stand against, a serious definition of some kind. Step Two: Determine if we've actually had a conservative government for any period of time since 1980 that have actually acted on the definition of conservatism. I've posted this as a meta-message because you can get different answers depending on what perfectly legitimate definition of conservatism you adopt. If you define it solely in terms of reactionary defense of the status quo, conservatism is politically dead, since the status quo has been, is, and will continue to never apply in our world. It moves too fast for that. If you define it as isomorphic to the Republican party, then it has been in charge and is discredited... but I don't find this a very good definition, as we already have a perfectly good word for "Republican". If you define it as involving cutting taxes, it has had some success, although only some. If you define it in terms of libertarianism, i.e., "smaller government", then it has not been in charge since 1980. We've actually not tried "smaller government" in a long time. It's hard to even identify a year since 1980 where it was winning the war, let alone claim it has been winning since then. "Conservative" and "liberal" are really such ill-defined constructs that using them seriously without defining them almost always indicates weak thinking. For example (and I'm not saying mattmaroon said this, it's just an example) claiming that "conservatives have been in charge since 1980, conservatives stand for small government, conservatives have been a failure therefore small government is a failure" is very bad logic because the meaning of "conservative" keeps shifting throughout the argument. Social conservatism has had a much better run than fiscal conservatism or small government, which has had almost no traction since the New Deal or even earlier. A couple of years of exception, but even those years it was mostly lip service followed by expanded government.
- arockwell 18y ago
  A conservative is someone you don't like (if you're a liberal). Other than that, I have no idea what the hell it means (vice versa for the term liberal). Political discussions are tough to have because the terminology has become so meaningless. Far too often, I see people slap a political label on a person or policy and the label is intended to be derogatory rather than informative.
- Retric 18y ago
  "conservative" is about far more than just taxes. If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party. The modern use of the term has far more to do with preserving the status quo from 100 years ago than it does about any specific ideology. EX: The ban on abortion, the free market pre great depression, "small government", banning stem cell research, anti environmentalism, which really started around the great depression. I expect the "conservative" movement in 100 years will look back at the good old days of the hippie movement with longing.
  - jerf 18y ago
    '"conservative" is about far more than just taxes.' I explain why there's a lot of definitions of the term, and your response is to... explain why one of my lines was wrong? 'If you want to compare government spending and fiscal responsibility then Democrats are by far the more "conservative" party.' Do you live the in the same world I do? Now, you might think I'm going to take exception to the idea that (D) spends less than (R). In fact, my incredulity is prompted by your "by far the more". From where I sit, neither party seems to have met a spending bill they didn't like, except briefly by the (R)s in the 90s which they quickly seem to have gotten over. (And whatever credibility the (D)s may have had on this issue just got squandered these last couple of weeks, with this "stimulus" bill that, even if you accept Keynesian economic theory, won't do a damn thing to help.) That's actually my point, there's significant things called "conservative" that haven't been tried lately, small government merely being at the top of the list. (Oh, and part of the reason I said "make a real definition" is to head off things like saying conservatives are "anti-environment". Nobody of any importance is "pro-pollution". (I don't know of anybody, but it's best to be careful with absolute statements.) They just disagree about priorities or effects. That sort of thinking leads to letting demagogues make up your mind for you.)
byrneseyeview 18y ago
How much smaller and less intrusive has the government gotten since 1980?
- mattmaroon 18y ago
  Well, it's lowered the tax rate. Social conservatives have had their way with us though. They're one Republican president away from repealing Roe.
  - byrneseyeview 18y ago
    I think it's changed the way it collects taxes, but as far as I know, government spending is still up, even adjusted for inflation. So it's hard for me to see that conservatives are so successful that they have continued to lose, just not as fast as they used to.

dantheman 18y ago

Conservatism, was originally about allowing each state to continue as they were when forming a federal government -- it's about what the states meant the constitution to mean when they designed the government. So it should be a small federal government/states rights perspective; and these states can do anything that they want as long as their state constitution allows it.

Retric 18y ago
It's older than that.

jmatt 18y ago

I think this Rush Limbaugh quote does a good job summarizing modern day conservatism: We believe in individual liberty, limited government, capitalism, the rule of law, faith, a color-blind society and national security. We support school choice, enterprise zones, tax cuts, welfare reform, faith-based initiatives, political speech, homeowner rights and the war on terrorism. And at our core we embrace and celebrate the most magnificent governing document ever ratified by any nation--the U.S. Constitution. Along with the Declaration of Independence, which recognizes our God-given natural right to be free, it is the foundation on which our government is built and has enabled us to flourish as a people.^ I think ideally that is what conservatives want to stand for, though in practice it may be quite different. ^ http://www.opinionjournal.com/ac/?id=110007417 http://www.opinionjournal.com/ac/?id=110007417

fallentimes 18y ago
In practice it's very different to the tune of big government and using faith as a license to ignore reason.
- jmatt 18y ago
  I'm a libertarian. I'm with you. I'm just saying it's what most conservatives believe in.
- jmatt 18y ago
  Just read what I wrote. I think ideally that is what conservatives want to stand for, though in practice it may be quite different.
  - fallentimes 18y ago
    There's no "may" just an "is".

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

As a libertarian, I think you've misread conservatives. Conservatives believe in induction: that things that work the same way over time have a tendency to continue working the same way. That humans are basically good people but flawed. Liberals believe in experimentation: that the human spirit is basically flawed but can be perfected through the right combination of experimentation. Burke is usually claimed as the first conservative. He was mostly a shill for the ruling class in Great Britain, but, to the dismay of his adversaries, turned out to be right in a large number of his predictions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke) Both terms have varied so much over the last 30 years as to almost be meaningless, however. JFK? He was for big tax cuts to spur the economy. Nixon? Froze prices. Politicians (and parties) that were "supposed" to be either conservative or liberal basically abandoned their principles whenever they thought they could get votes. People emotionally attach to the party, and then bandy about "liberal" and "conservative" as labels to shut conversation down. It has little to do with the actual philosophies of conservatism or liberalism (either classic liberalism or modern liberalism) (Sorry. Political junkie here. Couldn't resist providing the information) And long live libertarianism!