6 ms·

You say that, but they're discontinuing it because they didn't sell enough of them. It may be the device we need, but it's not the device we're buying.

dotancohen 1y ago
It's that "we" are too small a market. And I'm not convinced that most of us actually buy these niche devices, even though we say we will.
- kristopolous 1y ago
  nah it's that the work delta is too great. So if you come out with a typical android phone, you have to do X amount of work yourself and some Y amount you can just buy. If you are doing something like a PinePhone, there's a multiplier on the X of work you have to do yourself ... a significant multiplier and that's the problem. That's why if you have a something like a Pine phone that has the sales of say something like this: https://www.bluproducts.com/android-phones/ https://www.bluproducts.com/android-phones/ you're going to bleed money - you won't survive - it's too much of a lift. That's also why almost all phones (that are financially viable) look and feel almost the same.
reorder9695 1y ago
I'll buy them once I can access all of my banks on it, that is literally the only thing holding me to IOS or Anroid at the minute
- tmtvl 1y ago
  Then tell your banks they have to support the PinePhone or they'll lose you as a customer. The PinePhone folks don't have access to the source code of whatever interface your banks provide on Android/iOS, so they can't do anything about it.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  NB: Attestation has no security value here because if the phone isn't compromised then the owner having root isn't a security problem and if the phone is compromised then the user is entering their bank login into a fake scam app that doesn't require attestation regardless of what the real one does. But because the banks that require this are cargo culting some nonsense, they require iOS or Google Android but don't really care how old the phone is. Which means you can transfer your cellular plan to the phone you actually want to use and then just keep your existing phone indefinitely to run the bank app over WiFi or tethering.
  - charcircuit 1y ago
    What is protecting against another app on a PinePhone from stealing your bank's authentication token?
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      There are two possible scenarios here. The first is that your phone is not compromised. In this case there is no other app trying to steal your bank's authentication token. This is true regardless of which OS you use or whether you have magisk installed or what other code you put on your phone that isn't trying to steal your bank's authentication token. The second is that your phone is compromised. Then what prevents the device from capturing your bank credentials is the same as if you use a compromised phone running Google Android: Nothing. If you enter your bank credentials into a compromised phone, the attacker gets them. Attestation can't prevent this because the phone is compromised, so the login screen isn't from a bank app that requires attestation, it's from a scam app which is exfiltrating your credentials.
      - charcircuit 1y ago
        >Nothing This is far from the truth assuming by compromised you mean that the user has installed a malicous app. Android has proper sandboxing which means that other apps can't read the token owned by the bank app. This is part of the Android security model and attestation is evidence that the Android security model is being enforced. Phishing apps are different from an app that steals existing authentication tokens on the device.
NoboruWataya 1y ago
I never had a PinePhone Pro but I did buy an earlier model and the user experience was very far off what we have come to expect from modern phones. I'm sure the Pro was better but still probably not that close to an Android or Apple phone. That's not a sleight on the company at all, they faced some very high barriers and I respect what they did. But I don't think this is entirely on consumers for not putting their money where their mouth is. It's just yet another example that it's really hard to create something (in the phone space, at least) that is affordable, open and highly functional.
Aurornis 1y ago
The product was never really attractive by itself. You had to be extremely patient and willing to overlook the serious problems with their software to even try to use it. I would like to see some other company take a real swing at this product space but with a less strict approach around the hardcore open-everything ideals. They’re good in theory, but in practice people want a phone that works and you have to get to that stage first.
- xethos 1y ago
  > I would like to see some other company take a real swing at this product space but with a less strict approach around the hardcore open-everything ideals That... kind of was what happened. Purism released the Librem 5, and people were shocked they pushed so hard to get the FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" certification. The Pinephone (and Pro) used a less Free modem, resulting in much lower power draw, but the UX was still, well... Alpha-quality is putting it gently

dotancohen 1y ago

It's that "we" are too small a market. And I'm not convinced that most of us actually buy these niche devices, even though we say we will.

kristopolous 1y ago
nah it's that the work delta is too great. So if you come out with a typical android phone, you have to do X amount of work yourself and some Y amount you can just buy. If you are doing something like a PinePhone, there's a multiplier on the X of work you have to do yourself ... a significant multiplier and that's the problem. That's why if you have a something like a Pine phone that has the sales of say something like this: https://www.bluproducts.com/android-phones/ https://www.bluproducts.com/android-phones/ you're going to bleed money - you won't survive - it's too much of a lift. That's also why almost all phones (that are financially viable) look and feel almost the same.

reorder9695 1y ago

I'll buy them once I can access all of my banks on it, that is literally the only thing holding me to IOS or Anroid at the minute

tmtvl 1y ago
Then tell your banks they have to support the PinePhone or they'll lose you as a customer. The PinePhone folks don't have access to the source code of whatever interface your banks provide on Android/iOS, so they can't do anything about it.
AnthonyMouse 1y ago
NB: Attestation has no security value here because if the phone isn't compromised then the owner having root isn't a security problem and if the phone is compromised then the user is entering their bank login into a fake scam app that doesn't require attestation regardless of what the real one does. But because the banks that require this are cargo culting some nonsense, they require iOS or Google Android but don't really care how old the phone is. Which means you can transfer your cellular plan to the phone you actually want to use and then just keep your existing phone indefinitely to run the bank app over WiFi or tethering.
- charcircuit 1y ago
  What is protecting against another app on a PinePhone from stealing your bank's authentication token?
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    There are two possible scenarios here. The first is that your phone is not compromised. In this case there is no other app trying to steal your bank's authentication token. This is true regardless of which OS you use or whether you have magisk installed or what other code you put on your phone that isn't trying to steal your bank's authentication token. The second is that your phone is compromised. Then what prevents the device from capturing your bank credentials is the same as if you use a compromised phone running Google Android: Nothing. If you enter your bank credentials into a compromised phone, the attacker gets them. Attestation can't prevent this because the phone is compromised, so the login screen isn't from a bank app that requires attestation, it's from a scam app which is exfiltrating your credentials.
    - charcircuit 1y ago
      >Nothing This is far from the truth assuming by compromised you mean that the user has installed a malicous app. Android has proper sandboxing which means that other apps can't read the token owned by the bank app. This is part of the Android security model and attestation is evidence that the Android security model is being enforced. Phishing apps are different from an app that steals existing authentication tokens on the device.

NoboruWataya 1y ago

I never had a PinePhone Pro but I did buy an earlier model and the user experience was very far off what we have come to expect from modern phones. I'm sure the Pro was better but still probably not that close to an Android or Apple phone. That's not a sleight on the company at all, they faced some very high barriers and I respect what they did. But I don't think this is entirely on consumers for not putting their money where their mouth is. It's just yet another example that it's really hard to create something (in the phone space, at least) that is affordable, open and highly functional.

Aurornis 1y ago

The product was never really attractive by itself. You had to be extremely patient and willing to overlook the serious problems with their software to even try to use it. I would like to see some other company take a real swing at this product space but with a less strict approach around the hardcore open-everything ideals. They’re good in theory, but in practice people want a phone that works and you have to get to that stage first.

xethos 1y ago
> I would like to see some other company take a real swing at this product space but with a less strict approach around the hardcore open-everything ideals That... kind of was what happened. Purism released the Librem 5, and people were shocked they pushed so hard to get the FSF's "Respects Your Freedom" certification. The Pinephone (and Pro) used a less Free modem, resulting in much lower power draw, but the UX was still, well... Alpha-quality is putting it gently