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While I don't deny China is a big economy with areas where it's leading. This article reads a bit like cheerleading, which is fine. It's just not the whole trut

While I don't deny China is a big economy with areas where it's leading. This article reads a bit like cheerleading, which is fine. It's just not the whole truth. Also: >prosperity without freedom, development without democracy, safety without expansive civil liberties. So did the USSR in many places.

Yeul 1y ago
I think people like to overestimate just how much society cares about democracy and human rights. Many of us will trade it for peace and prosperity when push comes to shove.
- jajuuka 1y ago
  There is a reason for the rise of the far right in the west. Fascism for sure isn't the answer though. It's taking all the wrong lessons.
logicchains 1y ago
The article is misleading. What matters when comparing economic systems is relative standards of living _per person_, and America's GDP per capita of around $60k is 4x larger than China's GDP per capita of around $15k. The reason China's total GDP is high is because the population is so high, over a billion people. That's something the Chinese government deserves zero credit for because without the one child policy the population would be even higher; the Chinese government actively tried to suppress population growth. As another point of reference, Taiwan's GDP per capita is around $34k. I.e. if you look past the propaganda, in empirical terms the average Taiwanese person's material quality of life is twice as good as the average mainlander's.
mewse-hn 1y ago
It didn't feel like cheerleading to me, the very section you quoted is pointing out the part that is most troubling about China's rise, that they seem to be doing it without western freedoms. This is contrary to the ideology of the cold war that the market economy of the West won because of western liberties - freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, free elections. China's incredible transformation is happening without those things.
- logicchains 1y ago
  >China's incredible transformation There's nothing incredible about a GDP per capita of $15k, less than half the GDP of Korea, Japan or Taiwan. Slightly less even than places like Romania and Turkey. The only thing impressive about it that China's population is so large that the absolute GDP can be high even when the GDP per person is low. But the purpose of a government/economic system is to improve the standard of living of its citizens, and by that metric China is far behind other East Asian nations.
  - nearbuy 1y ago
    It was $15k in 2017. Now their GDP per capita (PPP) is about $29k. It's growing fast.
    - alessandru 1y ago
      you people realize that shanghai has world-class cost of living? like people there probably make 30k+ just to live there, but the rural, who aren't even allowed to consider living in shanghai bring that average down again. this avg without noting the median is about as misleading as saying people in america all make 80k. (this is household income so divide by avg household size 1.7 or whatever) the ai had older data but it proves the point: "While the average disposable income for urban residents in 2019 was approximately 39,244 CNY (roughly $5,800 USD), rural residents earned significantly less at 14,389 CNY (roughly $2,100 USD)"
      - nearbuy 1y ago
        Not sure why you're telling me this. I was giving an update for the parent comment which was complaining that China's GDP per capita was only $15k and much lower than Japan and Korea. You can tell them why they shouldn't compare GDP per capita across countries if you want.
    - dgfitz 1y ago
      It’s worth mentioning that the economic numbers reported from China about China are not terribly trustworthy.

Yeul 1y ago

I think people like to overestimate just how much society cares about democracy and human rights. Many of us will trade it for peace and prosperity when push comes to shove.

jajuuka 1y ago
There is a reason for the rise of the far right in the west. Fascism for sure isn't the answer though. It's taking all the wrong lessons.

logicchains 1y ago

The article is misleading. What matters when comparing economic systems is relative standards of living _per person_, and America's GDP per capita of around $60k is 4x larger than China's GDP per capita of around $15k. The reason China's total GDP is high is because the population is so high, over a billion people. That's something the Chinese government deserves zero credit for because without the one child policy the population would be even higher; the Chinese government actively tried to suppress population growth. As another point of reference, Taiwan's GDP per capita is around $34k. I.e. if you look past the propaganda, in empirical terms the average Taiwanese person's material quality of life is twice as good as the average mainlander's.

mewse-hn 1y ago

It didn't feel like cheerleading to me, the very section you quoted is pointing out the part that is most troubling about China's rise, that they seem to be doing it without western freedoms. This is contrary to the ideology of the cold war that the market economy of the West won because of western liberties - freedom of association, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, free elections. China's incredible transformation is happening without those things.

logicchains 1y ago
>China's incredible transformation There's nothing incredible about a GDP per capita of $15k, less than half the GDP of Korea, Japan or Taiwan. Slightly less even than places like Romania and Turkey. The only thing impressive about it that China's population is so large that the absolute GDP can be high even when the GDP per person is low. But the purpose of a government/economic system is to improve the standard of living of its citizens, and by that metric China is far behind other East Asian nations.
- nearbuy 1y ago
  It was $15k in 2017. Now their GDP per capita (PPP) is about $29k. It's growing fast.
  - alessandru 1y ago
    you people realize that shanghai has world-class cost of living? like people there probably make 30k+ just to live there, but the rural, who aren't even allowed to consider living in shanghai bring that average down again. this avg without noting the median is about as misleading as saying people in america all make 80k. (this is household income so divide by avg household size 1.7 or whatever) the ai had older data but it proves the point: "While the average disposable income for urban residents in 2019 was approximately 39,244 CNY (roughly $5,800 USD), rural residents earned significantly less at 14,389 CNY (roughly $2,100 USD)"
    - nearbuy 1y ago
      Not sure why you're telling me this. I was giving an update for the parent comment which was complaining that China's GDP per capita was only $15k and much lower than Japan and Korea. You can tell them why they shouldn't compare GDP per capita across countries if you want.
  - dgfitz 1y ago
    It’s worth mentioning that the economic numbers reported from China about China are not terribly trustworthy.