3 ms·

Yeah for these kinds of things to work the hardware has to be at least somewhat competitive and the overall device reasonably usable. It doesn’t need to be a fl

Yeah for these kinds of things to work the hardware has to be at least somewhat competitive and the overall device reasonably usable. It doesn’t need to be a flagship or anything, just relatively recent, and the experience doesn’t have to be perfect, just actually suitable as a daily driver. That’s what gets people interested, inspires devs to contribute and fill app gaps. This kicks off a virtuous cycle where less technical family of those devs see the device and want to try it, which in turn creates more demand for apps pulling more dev interest and so on and so forth. It’s critical to be good enough to clear that initial hurdle, though. Without that, the device is relegated to the most curious of tinkerers which just isn’t sustainable. As far as dev experience goes, from my limited dabbling I think GTK+Adwaita might actually be overall nicer for mobile development than Qt, due to furnishment of a full set of widgets without having to pull in anything else, as well as bindings to way more languages. It’s considerably more comparable to UIKit and Android Framework at the very least.

bruce511 1y ago
>> That’s what gets people interested, inspires devs to contribute and fill app gaps. Alas, no, sorry. It's really not the number of apps that matters. Any phone OS could have less than 500 apps and be wildly successful. On the other hand you can have a million devs cranking out apps and the device would still be useless. Turns out the only apps that matters are the ones everyone actually use. Your banking app. Facebook. Whatsapp. Uber. Airbnb. Etc. All the product of big corporates. And my bank (to pick just 1) is simply not interested in developing their app for yet another platform. The effort in building it, supporting it etc simply makes no sense. Facebook, Netflix, Twitter, ESPN, and the next 40 "must haves" simply don't care. And independent devs simply cannot fill these holes. Without these the phone is simply useless as a daily driver for anything other than complete techno fanatics. Crumbs Microsoft couldn't convince this cohort to get on board. Some random Linux phone certainly won't. I don't say this with glee. They're nice toys. But Joe public doesn't reject them because of the hardware specs. He rejects them because they're functionally useless in the actual world.
- ge96 1y ago
  That is true, you have to have two phones
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  I think this is wildly more individual-dependent than you may think. Speaking personally, while I do have a number of big commercial apps installed, the number that couldn’t be filled either with a web app or the Android version via a compatibility layer is tiny. The native apps I find most difficult to replace are those by small to midsize devs, which are exactly the ones most likely to be the primary contributors to a new platform early on. I don’t think this is particularly unusual, either. Plenty of people have absoutely no need for video streaming on their phone outside of maybe YouTube for example, which works well enough on the web. Microsoft’s not the best example here, because they had momentum with both devs and users but shot themselves in the foot repeatedly on both sides of the fence: warring internal factions reset Windows Mobile development multiple times consecutively and burned through dev goodwill and poor strategy on the consumer side killed things there. Mozilla’s foray into phones failed because they insisted on sticking to entry level devices which were both not interesting to most of the market and not powerful enough to handle a new unoptimized OS.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    For what it's worth, I don't have a single one of the apps GP mentions installed on my phone. No Netflix, no Facebook, no WhatsApp. I am aware that I am an outlier, though. I need either Anki or AnkiDroid. I need a somewhat decent text reader, preferably one that properly highlights and folds Org mode files. I need a voice recorder that timestamps the file name. I don't think I know anybody else who needs any of those three, other than those I've introduced to Anki.
  - codedokode 1y ago
    > Mozilla’s foray into phones failed because they insisted on sticking to entry level devices which were both not interesting to most of the market and not powerful enough to handle a new unoptimized OS. I think that was not a bad idea. Other open source OSes target expensive devices like Pixel and as a result many people are not buying them because paying a premium for a non-standard phone with buggy software and lacking features doesn't make much sense.
codedokode 1y ago
GTK uses a C emulation of OOP, and the code gets very verbose (and functions have names like "gtk_event_controller_get_current_event_device", so you cannotfit more than one call in a line). I do not recommend to use GTK (or anything from Glib) with C, use bindings for a better language, and you save 2x-3x in code size.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  Makes a lot of sense and explains the proliferation of Vala and Rust among other languages in the GTK ecosystem.

bruce511 1y ago

>> That’s what gets people interested, inspires devs to contribute and fill app gaps. Alas, no, sorry. It's really not the number of apps that matters. Any phone OS could have less than 500 apps and be wildly successful. On the other hand you can have a million devs cranking out apps and the device would still be useless. Turns out the only apps that matters are the ones everyone actually use. Your banking app. Facebook. Whatsapp. Uber. Airbnb. Etc. All the product of big corporates. And my bank (to pick just 1) is simply not interested in developing their app for yet another platform. The effort in building it, supporting it etc simply makes no sense. Facebook, Netflix, Twitter, ESPN, and the next 40 "must haves" simply don't care. And independent devs simply cannot fill these holes. Without these the phone is simply useless as a daily driver for anything other than complete techno fanatics. Crumbs Microsoft couldn't convince this cohort to get on board. Some random Linux phone certainly won't. I don't say this with glee. They're nice toys. But Joe public doesn't reject them because of the hardware specs. He rejects them because they're functionally useless in the actual world.

ge96 1y ago
That is true, you have to have two phones
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
I think this is wildly more individual-dependent than you may think. Speaking personally, while I do have a number of big commercial apps installed, the number that couldn’t be filled either with a web app or the Android version via a compatibility layer is tiny. The native apps I find most difficult to replace are those by small to midsize devs, which are exactly the ones most likely to be the primary contributors to a new platform early on. I don’t think this is particularly unusual, either. Plenty of people have absoutely no need for video streaming on their phone outside of maybe YouTube for example, which works well enough on the web. Microsoft’s not the best example here, because they had momentum with both devs and users but shot themselves in the foot repeatedly on both sides of the fence: warring internal factions reset Windows Mobile development multiple times consecutively and burned through dev goodwill and poor strategy on the consumer side killed things there. Mozilla’s foray into phones failed because they insisted on sticking to entry level devices which were both not interesting to most of the market and not powerful enough to handle a new unoptimized OS.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  For what it's worth, I don't have a single one of the apps GP mentions installed on my phone. No Netflix, no Facebook, no WhatsApp. I am aware that I am an outlier, though. I need either Anki or AnkiDroid. I need a somewhat decent text reader, preferably one that properly highlights and folds Org mode files. I need a voice recorder that timestamps the file name. I don't think I know anybody else who needs any of those three, other than those I've introduced to Anki.
- codedokode 1y ago
  > Mozilla’s foray into phones failed because they insisted on sticking to entry level devices which were both not interesting to most of the market and not powerful enough to handle a new unoptimized OS. I think that was not a bad idea. Other open source OSes target expensive devices like Pixel and as a result many people are not buying them because paying a premium for a non-standard phone with buggy software and lacking features doesn't make much sense.

codedokode 1y ago

GTK uses a C emulation of OOP, and the code gets very verbose (and functions have names like "gtk_event_controller_get_current_event_device", so you cannotfit more than one call in a line). I do not recommend to use GTK (or anything from Glib) with C, use bindings for a better language, and you save 2x-3x in code size.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago
Makes a lot of sense and explains the proliferation of Vala and Rust among other languages in the GTK ecosystem.