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I don't think Russia (or China, either) has been truly communist, in a long time. Not sure there are any real communist nations left. It's one of those ideolog

I don't think Russia (or China, either) has been truly communist, in a long time. Not sure there are any real communist nations left. It's one of those ideologies that looks good on paper, but falls apart, as soon as humans get added to the soup. Idealists never seem to account for base human nature.

ii41 1y ago
Your parent comment labeled themselves off-topic but I'd say they were still pretty on it, but you're like way too off-topic. The point isn't whether some country or some people are real communists or not, but that an individual shouldn't be harassed for maintaining open source software and can somehow be linked to some rival of the West.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  Fair point. But, to be fair, the note about not taking human nature into account, applies everywhere. I think that we've all seen very smart people fail to account for human nature, and things go badly. Open source/free work is very human, and I have found it important to keep human nature in mind, as I work.
  - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
    I agree that ignoring human nature is a bad move. In fact, a recipe for disaster for many reasons. Repress or disrespect it, and it will come back roaring with a vengeance. I also agree that empirically, communism is always a disaster. But I would also say that communism doesn't even look good on paper. It looks terrifying! To naive and frankly clueless young minds with no appreciation of human nature, human society, and so on, a superficial acquaintance with the subject matter might seem nice, as it might play on tropes and juvenile grievances, envies, and sentiments. But an honest look at it by an intellectually properly formed and informed mind will inspire horror. It is a dehumanizing ideology. Now, that doesn't mean our hyperindividualist, capitalistic, and liberal consumerist societies don't have their share of poison. They do, and again, to a good degree because they misconstrue human nature. But communism or even socialism are no solution to these ills. (JPII's "Centesimus Annus"[0], among more academic works by him and others, addresses some of this. People often pay attention to his anti-socialist, anti-communist legacy, but remain unaware of his critical stance toward capitalism and liberalism.) [0] https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/d...
    - keybored 1y ago
      > But I would also say that communism doesn't even look good on paper. It looks terrifying! To naive and frankly clueless young minds with no appreciation of human nature, human society, and so on, a superficial acquaintance with the subject matter might seem nice, as it might play on tropes and juvenile grievances, envies, and sentiments. But an honest look at it by an intellectually properly formed and informed mind will inspire horror. It is a dehumanizing ideology. Notice the abundance of adjectives and complete lack of argumentation.
      - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
        If you're too lazy to read the linked encyclical, just say so. Don't hide behind vacuous moralizing.
        keybored 1y ago
        If you’re too lazy to make your own argument, just-- well you already said so.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
skeeter2020 1y ago
>> It's one of those ideologies that looks good on paper, but falls apart, as soon as humans get added... Name an ideology where this doesn't happen.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  True, dat…
- renewiltord 1y ago
  Constitutional democracies with a free market have had a long run so far. We shall see if they last.
  - seangrogg 1y ago
    Curious how we're defining "democracy" and "free market" with this one. I wonder how countries with a pure democracy and an actually free market compare to the republic and regulated market we have in the US.
    - krapp 1y ago
      >I wonder how countries with a pure democracy and an actually free market compare to the republic and regulated market we have in the US. They don't exist.
    - renewiltord 1y ago
      The US is a constitutional democracy with a free market and I consider it successful. The definitions of these words can be the predominant use of these words in the English language. But if you want "constitutional democracy" here use this: https://civiced.org/lesson-plans/constitutional-democracy https://civiced.org/lesson-plans/constitutional-democracy And for free market here, use this: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp People frequently misunderstand "constitutional democracy" as being substantially different from "republic" but that's usually an ESL error that can be fixed quickly.
keybored 1y ago
> Not sure there are any real communist nations left. It's one of those ideologies that looks good on paper, but falls apart, as soon as humans get added to the soup. > Idealists never seem to account for base human nature. Are the implicit “in practice” (cf on paper) and “base human nature” weird synonyms for America invading or doing a coup?
tracker1 1y ago
Doesn't stop idealists from pushing their new, "real" version of it... or "Rules for radicals" and Maoist inspired updates to Communism along the way.
mike_hearn 1y ago
Don't forget about North Korea. China is still pretty communist, even if you define it purely economically rather than by all the other traits too (e.g. heavy censorship). The list of largest employers in the world has a lot of state owned Chinese firms.

ii41 1y ago

Your parent comment labeled themselves off-topic but I'd say they were still pretty on it, but you're like way too off-topic. The point isn't whether some country or some people are real communists or not, but that an individual shouldn't be harassed for maintaining open source software and can somehow be linked to some rival of the West.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Fair point. But, to be fair, the note about not taking human nature into account, applies everywhere. I think that we've all seen very smart people fail to account for human nature, and things go badly. Open source/free work is very human, and I have found it important to keep human nature in mind, as I work.
- lo_zamoyski 1y ago
  I agree that ignoring human nature is a bad move. In fact, a recipe for disaster for many reasons. Repress or disrespect it, and it will come back roaring with a vengeance. I also agree that empirically, communism is always a disaster. But I would also say that communism doesn't even look good on paper. It looks terrifying! To naive and frankly clueless young minds with no appreciation of human nature, human society, and so on, a superficial acquaintance with the subject matter might seem nice, as it might play on tropes and juvenile grievances, envies, and sentiments. But an honest look at it by an intellectually properly formed and informed mind will inspire horror. It is a dehumanizing ideology. Now, that doesn't mean our hyperindividualist, capitalistic, and liberal consumerist societies don't have their share of poison. They do, and again, to a good degree because they misconstrue human nature. But communism or even socialism are no solution to these ills. (JPII's "Centesimus Annus"[0], among more academic works by him and others, addresses some of this. People often pay attention to his anti-socialist, anti-communist legacy, but remain unaware of his critical stance toward capitalism and liberalism.) [0] https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus.html https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/d...
  - keybored 1y ago
    > But I would also say that communism doesn't even look good on paper. It looks terrifying! To naive and frankly clueless young minds with no appreciation of human nature, human society, and so on, a superficial acquaintance with the subject matter might seem nice, as it might play on tropes and juvenile grievances, envies, and sentiments. But an honest look at it by an intellectually properly formed and informed mind will inspire horror. It is a dehumanizing ideology. Notice the abundance of adjectives and complete lack of argumentation.
    - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
      If you're too lazy to read the linked encyclical, just say so. Don't hide behind vacuous moralizing.
      - keybored 1y ago
        If you’re too lazy to make your own argument, just-- well you already said so.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

skeeter2020 1y ago

>> It's one of those ideologies that looks good on paper, but falls apart, as soon as humans get added... Name an ideology where this doesn't happen.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
True, dat…
renewiltord 1y ago
Constitutional democracies with a free market have had a long run so far. We shall see if they last.
- seangrogg 1y ago
  Curious how we're defining "democracy" and "free market" with this one. I wonder how countries with a pure democracy and an actually free market compare to the republic and regulated market we have in the US.
  - krapp 1y ago
    >I wonder how countries with a pure democracy and an actually free market compare to the republic and regulated market we have in the US. They don't exist.
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    The US is a constitutional democracy with a free market and I consider it successful. The definitions of these words can be the predominant use of these words in the English language. But if you want "constitutional democracy" here use this: https://civiced.org/lesson-plans/constitutional-democracy https://civiced.org/lesson-plans/constitutional-democracy And for free market here, use this: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/freemarket.asp People frequently misunderstand "constitutional democracy" as being substantially different from "republic" but that's usually an ESL error that can be fixed quickly.

keybored 1y ago

> Not sure there are any real communist nations left. It's one of those ideologies that looks good on paper, but falls apart, as soon as humans get added to the soup. > Idealists never seem to account for base human nature. Are the implicit “in practice” (cf on paper) and “base human nature” weird synonyms for America invading or doing a coup?

tracker1 1y ago

Doesn't stop idealists from pushing their new, "real" version of it... or "Rules for radicals" and Maoist inspired updates to Communism along the way.

mike_hearn 1y ago

Don't forget about North Korea. China is still pretty communist, even if you define it purely economically rather than by all the other traits too (e.g. heavy censorship). The list of largest employers in the world has a lot of state owned Chinese firms.