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But what's actually happening? There seems to be a lack of technical information. And why does the SSD allow this to happen? A SSD has its own onboard computer

But what's actually happening? There seems to be a lack of technical information. And why does the SSD allow this to happen? A SSD has its own onboard computer, it's not just allowing the OS to do whatever it wants. Obviously the OS can write way too much and reach the endurance limit but that should have been figured out almost instantly, with OS write stats and SMART stats.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>But what's actually happening? There seems to be a lack of technical information. That's also what I want to know. All the information on this topic seems to be just circular anecdotes like a snake eating its own tail: a bunch of anecdotal reddit posts, quoting a Tom's hardware article, that's quoting more anecdotal reddit posts, that's quoting one Japanese tweet of someone's speculation. Like how many of these SSD deaths can actually be pinned on this update, and how much of this is just "Havana syndrome" of people's SSDs dying for whatever other reason, then they hear about this hubbub in the news and then they go on reddit and say "OMG mine too", then clickbait journalists pick up on it, and round and round we go, further reinforcing the FUD, but without any actual technical analysis to verify.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  Agree; any truth to the fact that this is push back for Windows 10 EOL?
- uyzstvqs 1y ago
  Right. It could just be the usual suspects of misinformation (Reddit, click-hungry "journalists", certain YouTube/Tiktok creators) amplifying each other in a circle. Just like that "16 billion passwords data leak" earlier this year. There is probably something going on. It could very well just be a bad batch of SSD controllers from one manufacturer failing.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    Or some weird conspiracy
Sesse__ 1y ago
> And why does the SSD allow this to happen? A SSD has its own onboard computer, it's not just allowing the OS to do whatever it wants. If the device is DRAM-less, much of its central information (large parts of the FTL, in particular) resides in the host's RAM, where the OS could presumably touch it. If that area of RAM is _somehow_ being overwritten or out-of-sync or otherwise unreliable, you can get pretty bad corruption.
- dark-star 1y ago
  no, the FTL is still in the SSD unless it's a host-managed SSD which is also operating in host-managed mode, which none of the articles have mentioned to be related to the issue
  - gruez 1y ago
    No, some SSDs use host memory buffer (HMB) to cache FTL tables. If the FTL cache gets corrupted, and that causes critical data to be overwritten, that could brick the SSD. For instance, if the FTL table was corrupted in such a way where a page for a random file is mapped to the page for the SSD's FTL (or other critical data), and the OS/user tries to write to that random file.
    - adithyassekhar 1y ago
      Isn't that a huge flaw?
      - Telaneo 1y ago
        Yes, which is why they're cheap(er). It's better than the alternative of using flash instead of going out to system RAM, but DRAM-less SSDs are still the cheap option; HMB is a mitigation, and not a complete fix.
  - pjdesno 1y ago
    The FTL executes on the SSD controller, which (on a DRAM-less controller) has limited on-chip SRAM and no DRAM. In contrast, a controller for more expensive SSDs which will require an external on-SSD DRAM chip of 1+GB. The FTL algorithm still needs one or more large tables. The driver allocates host-side memory for these tables, and the CPU on the SSD that runs the FTL has to reach out over the PCIe bus (e.g. using DMA operations) to write or read these tables. It's an abomination that wouldn't exist in an ideal world, but in that same ideal world people wouldn't buy a crappy product because it's $5 cheaper.
Hilift 1y ago
It is not published yet on the Microsoft update page (https://support.microsoft.com/KB/5063878 https://support.microsoft.com/KB/5063878). And it only applies to Windows 11 24 H2. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/5536733/potential-ssd-detection-bug-in-windows-11-24h2-fol https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/5536733/...
TiredOfLife 1y ago
> But what's actually happening? Publications need clicks, videos need watches, people need upvotes

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>But what's actually happening? There seems to be a lack of technical information. That's also what I want to know. All the information on this topic seems to be just circular anecdotes like a snake eating its own tail: a bunch of anecdotal reddit posts, quoting a Tom's hardware article, that's quoting more anecdotal reddit posts, that's quoting one Japanese tweet of someone's speculation. Like how many of these SSD deaths can actually be pinned on this update, and how much of this is just "Havana syndrome" of people's SSDs dying for whatever other reason, then they hear about this hubbub in the news and then they go on reddit and say "OMG mine too", then clickbait journalists pick up on it, and round and round we go, further reinforcing the FUD, but without any actual technical analysis to verify.

firesteelrain 1y ago
Agree; any truth to the fact that this is push back for Windows 10 EOL?
uyzstvqs 1y ago
Right. It could just be the usual suspects of misinformation (Reddit, click-hungry "journalists", certain YouTube/Tiktok creators) amplifying each other in a circle. Just like that "16 billion passwords data leak" earlier this year. There is probably something going on. It could very well just be a bad batch of SSD controllers from one manufacturer failing.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  Or some weird conspiracy

Sesse__ 1y ago

> And why does the SSD allow this to happen? A SSD has its own onboard computer, it's not just allowing the OS to do whatever it wants. If the device is DRAM-less, much of its central information (large parts of the FTL, in particular) resides in the host's RAM, where the OS could presumably touch it. If that area of RAM is _somehow_ being overwritten or out-of-sync or otherwise unreliable, you can get pretty bad corruption.

dark-star 1y ago
no, the FTL is still in the SSD unless it's a host-managed SSD which is also operating in host-managed mode, which none of the articles have mentioned to be related to the issue
- gruez 1y ago
  No, some SSDs use host memory buffer (HMB) to cache FTL tables. If the FTL cache gets corrupted, and that causes critical data to be overwritten, that could brick the SSD. For instance, if the FTL table was corrupted in such a way where a page for a random file is mapped to the page for the SSD's FTL (or other critical data), and the OS/user tries to write to that random file.
  - adithyassekhar 1y ago
    Isn't that a huge flaw?
    - Telaneo 1y ago
      Yes, which is why they're cheap(er). It's better than the alternative of using flash instead of going out to system RAM, but DRAM-less SSDs are still the cheap option; HMB is a mitigation, and not a complete fix.
- pjdesno 1y ago
  The FTL executes on the SSD controller, which (on a DRAM-less controller) has limited on-chip SRAM and no DRAM. In contrast, a controller for more expensive SSDs which will require an external on-SSD DRAM chip of 1+GB. The FTL algorithm still needs one or more large tables. The driver allocates host-side memory for these tables, and the CPU on the SSD that runs the FTL has to reach out over the PCIe bus (e.g. using DMA operations) to write or read these tables. It's an abomination that wouldn't exist in an ideal world, but in that same ideal world people wouldn't buy a crappy product because it's $5 cheaper.

Hilift 1y ago

It is not published yet on the Microsoft update page (https://support.microsoft.com/KB/5063878 https://support.microsoft.com/KB/5063878). And it only applies to Windows 11 24 H2. https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/5536733/potential-ssd-detection-bug-in-windows-11-24h2-fol https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/5536733/...

TiredOfLife 1y ago

> But what's actually happening? Publications need clicks, videos need watches, people need upvotes