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UMichigan study: EVs are cleaner than ICEs over average vehicle life

aurareturn 1y ago
If everyone in a city switched to EVs, the city will be transformed in a very positive way. When I was in Shenzhen in 2024, I think around 80% of cars are EVs (maybe 90% now?). The difference in livability is so drastic compared to when I was there in 2019. The air quality, heat, noise are all so much better that going to any city outside of China seems like going backwards in time. It makes a huge difference in Asian cities due to the density. The difference is probably less drastic in a city like San Francisco where the ocean breeze cleans the air more frequently and it's not hot. Maybe also not as drastic in highly sparse American neighborhoods.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  That can work pretty well in China, where the CCP has the power to Build Stuff, at scale. Things are Different in most "1st world" nations. :( (I'd also guess that China had pretty lax emissions regulations in prior decades, making their "before" considerably worse.)
  - aurareturn 1y ago
    Doesn't matter if their before was worse. What's important now is that when one walks on a Shenzhen street, one does not breathe in gasoline car byproducts.
  - lysp 1y ago
    > where the CCP has the power to Build Stuff, at scale. Not just that, they can mandate large changes. If you try to do that in a western country, you'll have fossil fuel lobbyists, car manufacturers and a whole range of other vested interests putting pressure on the country's government not to make that change.
    - dkiebd 1y ago
      You forget the citizens who can't afford to change their cars. Of course a dictatorship can just say "too fucking bad".
      - ZeroGravitas 1y ago
        EVs are cheaper to buy and cheaper to run than equivalent ICE cars in China.
        dkiebd 1y ago
        Which is not what I said. Buying a new car is an upfront cost that not everybody can afford to pay.
        aurareturn 1y ago
        Most people in China don't have cars. They use public transportation, buses, mini electric motorbikes that can be on sidewalks, and ride hailing. So if they can't afford to switch from ICE to EV mandate, they still have options to get around. Though I think if a person had enough money to buy an ICE car, they should have enough to switch to an EV in China.
      - swasheck 1y ago
        I don’t get the sense that this is a problem in countries where accumulation of wealth and property as a show of power and success is the ultimate goal
    - throwawayqqq11 1y ago
      Maybe as small "ease of mind." I expect the CCP to get as corrupted as western governments, and because of a lacking democratic spirit, id bet my money on china becoming a stable dictatorship like north korea, focused on sustaining the existing power structure than wellbeing of its citizens, like the lobbies in the west do. Democracies might be slow and misguided but in the long term, they are the best shot to correct previous mistakes. But who knows. Chinese leadership was very smart in the past, maybe thell find a new way.
  - twobitshifter 1y ago
    What do Chinese EV mandates, incentives, or carbon regulations look like? I had assumed that Chinese EVs were simply less expensive than gas cars and no extra incentives were needed.
    - triceratops 1y ago
      I remember reading somewhere the waiting list for an ICE car permit (my interpretation: license plates) is several years. EV permits are available immediately. With good reason too: Chinese cities had terrible air quality 10 or 15 years ago.
- reerdna 1y ago
  Same experience in Norway. 95%+ of new cars sold are electric. I've been riding my bike to work along the same road for 15 years. I used to have to hold my breath along some sections of my ride. Now the air in the city is almost as fresh as in the countryside.
- Steven420 1y ago
  The problem with EVs is that they are essentially subscription cars. I don't want my car to be deprecated by a software update and I don't want a car that I can't fix myself. Not to mention all the safety problems that they have
  - jen20 1y ago
    In that case you don't just need an ICE vehicle, you need one that hasn't been manufactured in a very long time.
  - Cycl0ps 1y ago
    None of these are issues specific to EVs. This is more of a problem with all modern cars. Valid concerns, but they impact ICE vehicles just as much
kqr2 1y ago
Less CO2 for sure but do any of these studies also factor in increased tire dust from EVs since they are heavier and wear out tires faster?
- reerdna 1y ago
  Yes, but it turns out it doesn't matter much. What _does_ matter is the huge reduction in the much more dangerous brake dust, as electric vehicles convert the kinetic energy back to the battery charge via generation instead of wasting it via friction: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44666157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44666157
  - kqr2 1y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44670401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44670401 This comment says EVs generate 10-15% more tire dust which is a significant ocean pollutant. Does anyone know the impact on human health?
    - Kirby64 1y ago
      The comment is that they’re 10-15% heavier, not that they generate 10-15% more tire dust. In general tire dust generated seems related to tire compound (softer tires = more dust) and weight of vehicle. Although EVs are heavier, they also tend to use harder tires for more efficiency, so it would not surprise me if it’s a wash by equivalent tires to whatever is used in normal combustion cars. Seems to me the focus for tire dust should be focused on the truly heavy vehicles: how much do 18 wheelers generate, given they’re typically weighing 10-40x what a regular car weighs.
  - fred_is_fred 1y ago
    Would hybrids also have the same advantage? I have 2 hybrids as I have use cases that need gas (rural driving). One of them is a traditional style and the other is a 50 mile electric option which can use gas when needed.

If everyone in a city switched to EVs, the city will be transformed in a very positive way. When I was in Shenzhen in 2024, I think around 80% of cars are EVs (maybe 90% now?). The difference in livability is so drastic compared to when I was there in 2019. The air quality, heat, noise are all so much better that going to any city outside of China seems like going backwards in time. It makes a huge difference in Asian cities due to the density. The difference is probably less drastic in a city like San Francisco where the ocean breeze cleans the air more frequently and it's not hot. Maybe also not as drastic in highly sparse American neighborhoods.

bell-cot 1y ago
That can work pretty well in China, where the CCP has the power to Build Stuff, at scale. Things are Different in most "1st world" nations. :( (I'd also guess that China had pretty lax emissions regulations in prior decades, making their "before" considerably worse.)
- aurareturn 1y ago
  Doesn't matter if their before was worse. What's important now is that when one walks on a Shenzhen street, one does not breathe in gasoline car byproducts.
- lysp 1y ago
  > where the CCP has the power to Build Stuff, at scale. Not just that, they can mandate large changes. If you try to do that in a western country, you'll have fossil fuel lobbyists, car manufacturers and a whole range of other vested interests putting pressure on the country's government not to make that change.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    You forget the citizens who can't afford to change their cars. Of course a dictatorship can just say "too fucking bad".
    - ZeroGravitas 1y ago
      EVs are cheaper to buy and cheaper to run than equivalent ICE cars in China.
      - dkiebd 1y ago
        Which is not what I said. Buying a new car is an upfront cost that not everybody can afford to pay.
        aurareturn 1y ago
        Most people in China don't have cars. They use public transportation, buses, mini electric motorbikes that can be on sidewalks, and ride hailing. So if they can't afford to switch from ICE to EV mandate, they still have options to get around. Though I think if a person had enough money to buy an ICE car, they should have enough to switch to an EV in China.
    - swasheck 1y ago
      I don’t get the sense that this is a problem in countries where accumulation of wealth and property as a show of power and success is the ultimate goal
  - throwawayqqq11 1y ago
    Maybe as small "ease of mind." I expect the CCP to get as corrupted as western governments, and because of a lacking democratic spirit, id bet my money on china becoming a stable dictatorship like north korea, focused on sustaining the existing power structure than wellbeing of its citizens, like the lobbies in the west do. Democracies might be slow and misguided but in the long term, they are the best shot to correct previous mistakes. But who knows. Chinese leadership was very smart in the past, maybe thell find a new way.
- twobitshifter 1y ago
  What do Chinese EV mandates, incentives, or carbon regulations look like? I had assumed that Chinese EVs were simply less expensive than gas cars and no extra incentives were needed.
  - triceratops 1y ago
    I remember reading somewhere the waiting list for an ICE car permit (my interpretation: license plates) is several years. EV permits are available immediately. With good reason too: Chinese cities had terrible air quality 10 or 15 years ago.
reerdna 1y ago
Same experience in Norway. 95%+ of new cars sold are electric. I've been riding my bike to work along the same road for 15 years. I used to have to hold my breath along some sections of my ride. Now the air in the city is almost as fresh as in the countryside.
Steven420 1y ago
The problem with EVs is that they are essentially subscription cars. I don't want my car to be deprecated by a software update and I don't want a car that I can't fix myself. Not to mention all the safety problems that they have
- jen20 1y ago
  In that case you don't just need an ICE vehicle, you need one that hasn't been manufactured in a very long time.
- Cycl0ps 1y ago
  None of these are issues specific to EVs. This is more of a problem with all modern cars. Valid concerns, but they impact ICE vehicles just as much

kqr2 1y ago

Less CO2 for sure but do any of these studies also factor in increased tire dust from EVs since they are heavier and wear out tires faster?

reerdna 1y ago
Yes, but it turns out it doesn't matter much. What _does_ matter is the huge reduction in the much more dangerous brake dust, as electric vehicles convert the kinetic energy back to the battery charge via generation instead of wasting it via friction: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44666157 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44666157
- kqr2 1y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44670401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44670401 This comment says EVs generate 10-15% more tire dust which is a significant ocean pollutant. Does anyone know the impact on human health?
  - Kirby64 1y ago
    The comment is that they’re 10-15% heavier, not that they generate 10-15% more tire dust. In general tire dust generated seems related to tire compound (softer tires = more dust) and weight of vehicle. Although EVs are heavier, they also tend to use harder tires for more efficiency, so it would not surprise me if it’s a wash by equivalent tires to whatever is used in normal combustion cars. Seems to me the focus for tire dust should be focused on the truly heavy vehicles: how much do 18 wheelers generate, given they’re typically weighing 10-40x what a regular car weighs.
- fred_is_fred 1y ago
  Would hybrids also have the same advantage? I have 2 hybrids as I have use cases that need gas (rural driving). One of them is a traditional style and the other is a 50 mile electric option which can use gas when needed.