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Man whats "real ingredients". No you have to clarify what you meant by this. This is hinting at some really deep confusion of concepts. Are you somehow thinking

Man whats "real ingredients". No you have to clarify what you meant by this. This is hinting at some really deep confusion of concepts. Are you somehow thinking that a chemical process when done at a home workshop is somehow different from the same chemical process being done in a factory?

ericmay 1y ago
It can be - I don’t recall using xanthum gum or food dyes (or whatever these are just random “ingredients”) when I make something for someone in else to eat. I don’t think this really requires clarification but I’m happy to indulge you on a product by product basis. Do you really think that loaf of bread you make at home is made with the same chemical process as the bread coming from Wonderbread on the shelves at Wal-Mart? It’s sure as hell not using the same ingredients and it definitely costs quite a bit of $. You can apply this to furniture too. Do you think the furniture you buy at IKEA is made of actual wood with the same chemical process as the wood furniture you spend more money on that’s made by hand? (It’s not) Are IKEA’s (or whoever) suppliers paying workers good wages? Are their practices sustainable? Are they clear cutting forests and mixing plastic and literal trash into the furniture you buy and throw away after it starts to degrade? Even pharmaceuticals - are you sure generic drugs are just as good? I generally think so, but just because you cook with the same ingredients doesn’t mean Anthony Bourdain RIP isn’t using those same ingredients and making a better dish (drug). If there’s confusion about concepts I would say it’s mostly confusion on behalf of the public whom goes to the store, sees price tag + brand, and thinks that’s all they are comparing when they buy things.
- donkeybeer 1y ago
  Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? The fermentation of sugar is not a chemical process that suddenly changes based on weather its done at home or in a factory. The rest is just choice of grains, sugars and additives.
  - ericmay 1y ago
    > And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? Here's the ingredients list for Wonderbread from Wal-Mart.com Ingredients Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Nonfat Milk, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin. Active Ingredient Name Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Vinegar, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin. Here's my ingredients list for bread: salt, water, flour, yeast. Are you really going to sit here and argue that these are the same products and they are made in the same chemical process? This applies to other goods too, including manufactured goods. It's why Apple has historically had such great products. Sure the Windows PC specs were better, but the computer was always more than the sum of its parts and Apple continued to win out. > Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. I think you are getting hung up on this word artisanal but it's not really relevant. "Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of production that they need at a low enough cost to compete with mass-market supply chains and artificially cheap labor from other countries. But these products don't have to be "artisanal", they can just be regular products that you buy at the store or a local market or something. Introducing tariffs to offset actions by other states that cause their products to be artificially cheap, keeping American entrepreneurs from starting their own soap [1] companies or whatever might raise prices in a sense, but overall it is better for the economy since there are less economic outflows, less gig workers and people on government handouts, and more entrepreneurial activities and product innovation. Software engineers already know this is true, which is why they always complain about outsourcing of jobs to cheaper countries. It's cheaper! That's all that matters, right? [1] I don't know that soap is the best commodity product to use, it's just an example.
- donkeybeer 1y ago
  The public compares price tag first, and often only because its a LUXURY to factor in anything else. If they could afford and they saw some higher quality in it, they would have already bought something more expensive. Which obviously artificially inflating the price of the exact same item via tariffs doesn't suddenly make the "quality" part of the equation any different, so why bother with the same item but more expensive.
  - ericmay 1y ago
    > so why bother with the same item but more expensive. It's not the same item, that's why. You're still not understanding how products are priced, nor are you accounting for negative externalities (or positive ones) that factor into that price. Prices aren't being artificially inflated because of tariffs any more than they are artificially lower because of a certain country's monetary policy or wage gaps or whatever.
    - donkeybeer 1y ago
      Its the exact same item on the shelf. It didn't change at all. The only thing changed was the government came and artificially jacked its expenses up.
      - ericmay 1y ago
        The government that the item comes from also artificially made the price lower so it just evens out.
        donkeybeer 1y ago
        Are you sure they did? You have to give a precise list of those items which have been artificially cheapened by the other govts before you impose tariffs then. Obviously you can't believe the USA is the peak at every possible sector. Or do you really believe that another country being better at something must mean they are cheating? Give me the list or stop the tariff bs. Sometimes, there is no deeper explanation for this nonsense than being a sore loser at someone else being better than you at something.

ericmay 1y ago

It can be - I don’t recall using xanthum gum or food dyes (or whatever these are just random “ingredients”) when I make something for someone in else to eat. I don’t think this really requires clarification but I’m happy to indulge you on a product by product basis. Do you really think that loaf of bread you make at home is made with the same chemical process as the bread coming from Wonderbread on the shelves at Wal-Mart? It’s sure as hell not using the same ingredients and it definitely costs quite a bit of $. You can apply this to furniture too. Do you think the furniture you buy at IKEA is made of actual wood with the same chemical process as the wood furniture you spend more money on that’s made by hand? (It’s not) Are IKEA’s (or whoever) suppliers paying workers good wages? Are their practices sustainable? Are they clear cutting forests and mixing plastic and literal trash into the furniture you buy and throw away after it starts to degrade? Even pharmaceuticals - are you sure generic drugs are just as good? I generally think so, but just because you cook with the same ingredients doesn’t mean Anthony Bourdain RIP isn’t using those same ingredients and making a better dish (drug). If there’s confusion about concepts I would say it’s mostly confusion on behalf of the public whom goes to the store, sees price tag + brand, and thinks that’s all they are comparing when they buy things.

donkeybeer 1y ago
Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? The fermentation of sugar is not a chemical process that suddenly changes based on weather its done at home or in a factory. The rest is just choice of grains, sugars and additives.
- ericmay 1y ago
  > And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? Here's the ingredients list for Wonderbread from Wal-Mart.com Ingredients Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Nonfat Milk, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin. Active Ingredient Name Unbleached Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, Enriched Semolina (Durum Wheat, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Sugar, Yeast, Contains 2% or Less of Each of the Following: Soybean Oil, Wheat Gluten, Salt, Vinegar, Cultured Wheat Flour, Sunflower Lecithin, Enzymes, Ascorbic Acid, Soy Lecithin. Here's my ingredients list for bread: salt, water, flour, yeast. Are you really going to sit here and argue that these are the same products and they are made in the same chemical process? This applies to other goods too, including manufactured goods. It's why Apple has historically had such great products. Sure the Windows PC specs were better, but the computer was always more than the sum of its parts and Apple continued to win out. > Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. I think you are getting hung up on this word artisanal but it's not really relevant. "Artisinal" products today are mostly marketed that way because in order for the product to compete on the market at a price the producer can afford to make it at and still live on, the product has to tell a story or have a clever marketing scheme or something like that because they can't achieve the volume of production that they need at a low enough cost to compete with mass-market supply chains and artificially cheap labor from other countries. But these products don't have to be "artisanal", they can just be regular products that you buy at the store or a local market or something. Introducing tariffs to offset actions by other states that cause their products to be artificially cheap, keeping American entrepreneurs from starting their own soap [1] companies or whatever might raise prices in a sense, but overall it is better for the economy since there are less economic outflows, less gig workers and people on government handouts, and more entrepreneurial activities and product innovation. Software engineers already know this is true, which is why they always complain about outsourcing of jobs to cheaper countries. It's cheaper! That's all that matters, right? [1] I don't know that soap is the best commodity product to use, it's just an example.
donkeybeer 1y ago
The public compares price tag first, and often only because its a LUXURY to factor in anything else. If they could afford and they saw some higher quality in it, they would have already bought something more expensive. Which obviously artificially inflating the price of the exact same item via tariffs doesn't suddenly make the "quality" part of the equation any different, so why bother with the same item but more expensive.
- ericmay 1y ago
  > so why bother with the same item but more expensive. It's not the same item, that's why. You're still not understanding how products are priced, nor are you accounting for negative externalities (or positive ones) that factor into that price. Prices aren't being artificially inflated because of tariffs any more than they are artificially lower because of a certain country's monetary policy or wage gaps or whatever.
  - donkeybeer 1y ago
    Its the exact same item on the shelf. It didn't change at all. The only thing changed was the government came and artificially jacked its expenses up.
    - ericmay 1y ago
      The government that the item comes from also artificially made the price lower so it just evens out.
      - donkeybeer 1y ago
        Are you sure they did? You have to give a precise list of those items which have been artificially cheapened by the other govts before you impose tariffs then. Obviously you can't believe the USA is the peak at every possible sector. Or do you really believe that another country being better at something must mean they are cheating? Give me the list or stop the tariff bs. Sometimes, there is no deeper explanation for this nonsense than being a sore loser at someone else being better than you at something.