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This reminds me of something I mull over; Greek style philosophy seems so smart, rational and correct until you actually observe the world. Imo the perfect exam

This reminds me of something I mull over; Greek style philosophy seems so smart, rational and correct until you actually observe the world. Imo the perfect example is elementary particles - the Greeks (mostly) were convinced that it's impossible for something physical to be elementary (cannot be further split) and logically it is hard to understand why can't we continue to split the particle?! but hey, we can't. Physical beings which cannot be distinguished from one another would have made their heads spin...

JdeBP 1y ago
Indeed. That's rotational frame dragging for you. (-:
wahern 1y ago
Aren't quarks and, probably, electrons point-like particles? In that sense the fundamental subatomic particles aren't "physical" in the sense the Greeks would have thought of them, e.g. having a non-0 diameter, and in that way modern physics sort of vindicates their deductive reasoning. Their logic wasn't wrong, per se, it was their starting assumptions that were flawed (or at least incomplete), which is acceptable as far as deductive reasoning goes.
- JdeBP 1y ago
  No. Because the GR/QM conflict comes up in the other direction that way. GR predicts infinities for zero-radius particles. Indeed, so too does classical electromagnetism. In any case, "quanta" does not really mean the same as the classical notion of point particles. * https://youtube.com/watch?v=zPZrDbPAuKs https://youtube.com/watch?v=zPZrDbPAuKs
griffzhowl 1y ago
To be fair to the Greeks, thay also came up with the idea of elementary particles. I think it's Democritus who's credited with the idea of "atoms". It's been ages since I've read about him in any depth but I remember something about him having an idea that because of the indefinite divisibility of length then the elementary particles would have to have a diameter smaller than any given length, i.e. be infinitesimal, so they had quite sophisticated speculations

JdeBP 1y ago

Indeed. That's rotational frame dragging for you. (-:

wahern 1y ago

Aren't quarks and, probably, electrons point-like particles? In that sense the fundamental subatomic particles aren't "physical" in the sense the Greeks would have thought of them, e.g. having a non-0 diameter, and in that way modern physics sort of vindicates their deductive reasoning. Their logic wasn't wrong, per se, it was their starting assumptions that were flawed (or at least incomplete), which is acceptable as far as deductive reasoning goes.

JdeBP 1y ago
No. Because the GR/QM conflict comes up in the other direction that way. GR predicts infinities for zero-radius particles. Indeed, so too does classical electromagnetism. In any case, "quanta" does not really mean the same as the classical notion of point particles. * https://youtube.com/watch?v=zPZrDbPAuKs https://youtube.com/watch?v=zPZrDbPAuKs

griffzhowl 1y ago

To be fair to the Greeks, thay also came up with the idea of elementary particles. I think it's Democritus who's credited with the idea of "atoms". It's been ages since I've read about him in any depth but I remember something about him having an idea that because of the indefinite divisibility of length then the elementary particles would have to have a diameter smaller than any given length, i.e. be infinitesimal, so they had quite sophisticated speculations