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> and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. > Raising the p

by mlyle 1y ago

> and more consolidation into Wal-Mart scale corporations. I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. > Raising the prices of those goods makes artisan products more cost competitive. Look, I don't want an artisan UART board, and I don't think that my programs can ever afford "artisan UARTs." I'll just give up teaching this stuff to students instead.

ericmay 1y ago
I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be training or teaching programs, but that's not a requirement. Today that's much more difficult because a bar of soap at Wal-Mart is $1 or something and entrepreneurs can't make stuff that cheap when they're making it by hand using real ingredients or honing a specific craft - and it doesn't even end up with shelf space. The suburban, 1-stop-shop big box retailer, drive your SUV down the highway to buy cheap stuff from not America model drives down entrepreneurship and closes off small competitors and artisans. > I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. That's a factor but not the primary one.
- mlyle 1y ago
  I buy stuff -- small circuit boards, electronic components, unusual milling cutters, bearings, etc. The existence of these things as commodities lets me do a lot of deep EE and ME work with high school students. The US will not build a supply chain for these at any reasonable price. And shouldn't. These should be commodities and US labor should focus on higher value things. (Not to mention that US suppliers don't really like selling at low quantities and most don't really love selling to education or hobbyists). Tariffs just directly make my programs less feasible. Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart.
  - ericmay 1y ago
    Well we were also talking about artisan products too and not electronics. I don't buy the general consensus that the US can't or won't build supply chains for these products - we can and will if the tariffs are high enough, it'll just be highly automated which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In your specific case yea you are probably just looking at higher prices, but I don't think that your general argument is necessarily applicable across the entire economy. That's not to say in your specific case yea maybe the tariffs are just a net negative. > Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart. Well yes and no. The availability of drop-shipped products en masse, whether it's through Amazon or Wal-Mart's own drop-ship marketplaces still enable cheap consumerism and generate lots of waste and poor quality products at cheap prices (along with some good products at cheap prices to be fair). But I think the point about Amazon just strengthens my argument (for the sake of argument) which is you get these artificially cheap products shipped in, sometimes with stolen designs, and we can't spin up mom-and-pop shops or cottage industries because everybody just looks at the price of the cheapest bullshit thing they find on Amazon and they don't care about any number of issues that factor in to that price.
  - donkeybeer 1y ago
    These people make insane statements like supposed "pollution" and "slave labor" of China. What pollution man? The item needs to be produced and the factory will have same level of energy use here or anywhere else, so how does that make China a pollutant. I don't understand his obsession with forcefully jacking up prices of inferior shit, how exactly does that help anyone at all? Does he not know what happens with that minuscule extra profit? The worker will have to spend it on, wait for it, another such overpriced expensive junk completely nullifying it. And local industries get coddled and cozy and lose what tiny remaining incentive they had to compete. I am repeatedly asking him to see how high tariff countries like Brazil are. Just ask a Brazilian how they buy an iphone for example. I have never seen this blatant level of economic illiteracy from supposed educated people. And I don't even know whats his deal with "artisan" bs, technology is technology. It doesn't stop being tech just because it was invented ten thousand years ago. Artisan crap is a luxury for financially comfortable people. Automation is somehow this weird magical "magitech" to this guy I don't know what. Automation isn't a nice to have, its the essence to have something available and affordable to the masses at all. I seriously don't understand this hunger for economic regression. Making higher quality items cheaper is literally the fundamental basis of capitalism, or even technological progress in the first place. I really don't understand these bizarre economic theories at all.
- donkeybeer 1y ago
  Man whats "real ingredients". No you have to clarify what you meant by this. This is hinting at some really deep confusion of concepts. Are you somehow thinking that a chemical process when done at a home workshop is somehow different from the same chemical process being done in a factory?
  - ericmay 1y ago
    It can be - I don’t recall using xanthum gum or food dyes (or whatever these are just random “ingredients”) when I make something for someone in else to eat. I don’t think this really requires clarification but I’m happy to indulge you on a product by product basis. Do you really think that loaf of bread you make at home is made with the same chemical process as the bread coming from Wonderbread on the shelves at Wal-Mart? It’s sure as hell not using the same ingredients and it definitely costs quite a bit of $. You can apply this to furniture too. Do you think the furniture you buy at IKEA is made of actual wood with the same chemical process as the wood furniture you spend more money on that’s made by hand? (It’s not) Are IKEA’s (or whoever) suppliers paying workers good wages? Are their practices sustainable? Are they clear cutting forests and mixing plastic and literal trash into the furniture you buy and throw away after it starts to degrade? Even pharmaceuticals - are you sure generic drugs are just as good? I generally think so, but just because you cook with the same ingredients doesn’t mean Anthony Bourdain RIP isn’t using those same ingredients and making a better dish (drug). If there’s confusion about concepts I would say it’s mostly confusion on behalf of the public whom goes to the store, sees price tag + brand, and thinks that’s all they are comparing when they buy things.
    - donkeybeer 1y ago
      Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? The fermentation of sugar is not a chemical process that suddenly changes based on weather its done at home or in a factory. The rest is just choice of grains, sugars and additives.

by mlyle 1y ago

ericmay 1y ago

I don't know what you mean by artisan UART board - artisans and craftspeople don't, in my view, need to have anything to do with programs or universities or teaching or students - like you sit at home and work on making stuff, maybe you can sell it at a farmer's market or if you make something really good start your own business which could just be a single shop you run. Not to suggest there aren't or can't be training or teaching programs, but that's not a requirement. Today that's much more difficult because a bar of soap at Wal-Mart is $1 or something and entrepreneurs can't make stuff that cheap when they're making it by hand using real ingredients or honing a specific craft - and it doesn't even end up with shelf space. The suburban, 1-stop-shop big box retailer, drive your SUV down the highway to buy cheap stuff from not America model drives down entrepreneurship and closes off small competitors and artisans. > I think this has more to do with the effective abandonment of antitrust mechanisms. That's a factor but not the primary one.

mlyle 1y ago
I buy stuff -- small circuit boards, electronic components, unusual milling cutters, bearings, etc. The existence of these things as commodities lets me do a lot of deep EE and ME work with high school students. The US will not build a supply chain for these at any reasonable price. And shouldn't. These should be commodities and US labor should focus on higher value things. (Not to mention that US suppliers don't really like selling at low quantities and most don't really love selling to education or hobbyists). Tariffs just directly make my programs less feasible. Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart.
- ericmay 1y ago
  Well we were also talking about artisan products too and not electronics. I don't buy the general consensus that the US can't or won't build supply chains for these products - we can and will if the tariffs are high enough, it'll just be highly automated which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In your specific case yea you are probably just looking at higher prices, but I don't think that your general argument is necessarily applicable across the entire economy. That's not to say in your specific case yea maybe the tariffs are just a net negative. > Note that de minimis-- which we're talking about here-- has something to do with what's at Amazon because of drop shippers, but basically nothing that is sold somewhere like Walmart. Well yes and no. The availability of drop-shipped products en masse, whether it's through Amazon or Wal-Mart's own drop-ship marketplaces still enable cheap consumerism and generate lots of waste and poor quality products at cheap prices (along with some good products at cheap prices to be fair). But I think the point about Amazon just strengthens my argument (for the sake of argument) which is you get these artificially cheap products shipped in, sometimes with stolen designs, and we can't spin up mom-and-pop shops or cottage industries because everybody just looks at the price of the cheapest bullshit thing they find on Amazon and they don't care about any number of issues that factor in to that price.
- donkeybeer 1y ago
  These people make insane statements like supposed "pollution" and "slave labor" of China. What pollution man? The item needs to be produced and the factory will have same level of energy use here or anywhere else, so how does that make China a pollutant. I don't understand his obsession with forcefully jacking up prices of inferior shit, how exactly does that help anyone at all? Does he not know what happens with that minuscule extra profit? The worker will have to spend it on, wait for it, another such overpriced expensive junk completely nullifying it. And local industries get coddled and cozy and lose what tiny remaining incentive they had to compete. I am repeatedly asking him to see how high tariff countries like Brazil are. Just ask a Brazilian how they buy an iphone for example. I have never seen this blatant level of economic illiteracy from supposed educated people. And I don't even know whats his deal with "artisan" bs, technology is technology. It doesn't stop being tech just because it was invented ten thousand years ago. Artisan crap is a luxury for financially comfortable people. Automation is somehow this weird magical "magitech" to this guy I don't know what. Automation isn't a nice to have, its the essence to have something available and affordable to the masses at all. I seriously don't understand this hunger for economic regression. Making higher quality items cheaper is literally the fundamental basis of capitalism, or even technological progress in the first place. I really don't understand these bizarre economic theories at all.
donkeybeer 1y ago
Man whats "real ingredients". No you have to clarify what you meant by this. This is hinting at some really deep confusion of concepts. Are you somehow thinking that a chemical process when done at a home workshop is somehow different from the same chemical process being done in a factory?
- ericmay 1y ago
  It can be - I don’t recall using xanthum gum or food dyes (or whatever these are just random “ingredients”) when I make something for someone in else to eat. I don’t think this really requires clarification but I’m happy to indulge you on a product by product basis. Do you really think that loaf of bread you make at home is made with the same chemical process as the bread coming from Wonderbread on the shelves at Wal-Mart? It’s sure as hell not using the same ingredients and it definitely costs quite a bit of $. You can apply this to furniture too. Do you think the furniture you buy at IKEA is made of actual wood with the same chemical process as the wood furniture you spend more money on that’s made by hand? (It’s not) Are IKEA’s (or whoever) suppliers paying workers good wages? Are their practices sustainable? Are they clear cutting forests and mixing plastic and literal trash into the furniture you buy and throw away after it starts to degrade? Even pharmaceuticals - are you sure generic drugs are just as good? I generally think so, but just because you cook with the same ingredients doesn’t mean Anthony Bourdain RIP isn’t using those same ingredients and making a better dish (drug). If there’s confusion about concepts I would say it’s mostly confusion on behalf of the public whom goes to the store, sees price tag + brand, and thinks that’s all they are comparing when they buy things.
  - donkeybeer 1y ago
    Plywood, MDF and various other wood products are not a bad thing. They have superior mechanical properties and are actually better for the environment since you can use wood that otherwise won't yield large solid boards. Again you yourself said it, pure hardwood furniture is kind of a luxury. There is nothing wrong with "artisanal" except pretending it is something that actually sustains life. Artisanal is a perfectly fine luxury hobby. And yes, its the exact same chemical processes. How on earth would it not be? The fermentation of sugar is not a chemical process that suddenly changes based on weather its done at home or in a factory. The rest is just choice of grains, sugars and additives.