14 ms·

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to have different models for an ecosystem and market. Android exits, it's relatively open.

by bko 1y ago

Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to have different models for an ecosystem and market. Android exits, it's relatively open. I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). Apple is a walled garden. That's both a gift and a curse. I see a lot more spammy low-quality apps on Android, but I also have more choice. I prefer Android for mobile and Mac for desktop. As an aside, any time I've seen the state intervene in affairs like this it has made my experience as a user worse. I remember something about Google can no longer "favor" their services. So for instance, if I search for an address, it can't show me Google maps because it theoretically harms all the fledgling map companies. But now it's just more clicks for me. I don't care about competition, I care about the best product. If I search for an address I want google maps. If I search for a video, show me YouTube. And if Google fails to deliver the best product, I'll switch. It's no different than going to a restaurant and them serving only Pepsi products.

znpy 1y ago
> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to have different models for an ecosystem and market. The practice of charging different prices for the same digital good depending on the buyer’s country is generally called international price discrimination (or geo-based price discrimination). Just so you know.
benoau 1y ago
> It's no different than going to a restaurant and them serving only Pepsi products. I don't think that accurately depicts the situation. > Apple has threatened to remove creator platform Patreon from the App Store if creators use unsupported third-party billing options or disable transactions on iOS, instead of using Apple's own in-app purchasing system for Patreon's subscriptions. This happened because 5 years after Patreon published their app, Apple decided they were now due a 30% recurring cut of "indie creator" revenue. And that's ignoring that they did this while under court order to allow external payment options. And we've seen them try to force IAP purchases and subscriptions into WordPress, to Hey, and other apps too. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-says-patreon-must-switch-155232559.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-says-patreon-must-switc...
- bko 1y ago
  It seems ridiculous if you think about it. Imagine you're running a market and as part of that you allow vendors. The vendors have to pay some percent of sales to you, either credit card or cash. And then you start selling things in crypto thinking you can save on the market cut. It's their market. No one is forcing you to participate. But if you do you should have a good faith effort to abide by the rules. If not, bow out. If enough people bow out then he market is no longer the best market and they will lose to competitor markets.
  - benoau 1y ago
    Patreon weren't violating their rules, Patreon weren't doing anything wrong, and Patreon aren't getting anything out of this modified deal other than "their business not getting burned down if they comply" with a new condition that compelled a 30% fee. For which customers had to pay an extra $4.50/month in fees per creator they support.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    It's their market. No one is forcing you to participate. On the regular 'market', you have plenty of options. You can sell to supermarkets, you can make a webshop, you can sell on a local market, etc. You could even directly sell goods from your own farm (which works in a lot of places). Similarly, a buyer can get most products from a lot of places. If you make an smartphone app, you practically only have two markets: the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. They can dictate outsized fees and draconic rules, because there is no other way to sell your product. Moreover, they can kill apps that they decide to compete with or pick winners. It is everything but a free market and the EU is right to regulate it with the DSA/DMA.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    > It's their market. It's not. That's the entire point. The EU Single Market is the EU's. No trying to take it away, that is exactly what this is all about. We, the European people, are the ones that have set up the world's largest market of well-off consumers. Apple is the one that is trying to subdivide it and create a walled-off area where they don't have to follow our rules.
addandsubtract 1y ago
> I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). It changed with Google's announcement yesterday.
callc 1y ago
> I don't care about competition, I care about the best product. Competition is how you get to the best product. Lack of competition leads to malaise of product improvements as the market dominators are owning the space and happily exert their power over people. > It's no different than going to a restaurant and them serving only Pepsi products. There are two viable players for the average Joe in the phone market. There are I would guess 200-300 restaurants in my not so big town. The number of choices matters a lot. If there were only two real option for restaurants around me, I would hope the management does not decide to be evil and lower food quality, jack up prices, or collude to only offer specific food while the other restaurant does not offer. Also, in the restaurant example, we always have the option to buy our own food and cook at home. So to match the phone market situation, imagine cooking at home is illegal, and the only food you can eat is from two restaurants.
- bko 1y ago
  > Competition is how you get to the best product. Lack of competition leads to malaise of product improvements as the market dominators are owning the space and happily exert their power over people. I think the malaise is when you require every company to take the exact same approach. Let two companies take different approach. One is walled garden and the other is bazaar. I wish we had more walled gardens personally. I'm tired of wading through hundreds of results in Amazon through shady third party sellers. At this point I go to Best Buy, knowing that they won't sell me absolute garbage. Curation is very useful.
  - Refreeze5224 1y ago
    This seems like a distinction without a difference. Curation is totally allowed, in Apple's own app store. They just can't prevent people from using their devices how they see fit to maintain that curation. > I think the malaise is when you require every company to take the exact same approach. I think you're arguing against yourself here. The way to allow companies to take different approaches is to require any app store/approach be allowed. Then Apple can curate, FOSS app stores like FDroid can use their approach, etc. Fundamentally I think this issue is about ownership. Modern companies/products like to pretend that you don't own the things you buy, because it makes them money. Apple loves their 30% cut of apps, and hides behind "protecting the users" to maintain it, but they really want to control the your device. People would never ever tolerate not being in full control and maintaining true ownership of most things in their lives, but for some reason we let it slide with phones, which, like it or not, are one of the most important objects people own. They should be treated that way, and provided full ownership of them.
latexr 1y ago
> I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 > I don't care about competition, I care about the best product. You can’t have the best product if there’s no competition. > And if Google fails to deliver the best product, I'll switch. You won’t if there’s nothing to switch to because due to monopolistic practices no other service was able to survive.
manirelli 1y ago
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/google-will-block-sideloading-of-unverified-android-apps-starting-next-year/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/google-will-block-si...
wkat4242 1y ago
> Android exits, it's relatively open. I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). It didn't yet but it will change next year. All APKs will have to be signed by Google then.

by bko 1y ago

znpy 1y ago

> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems entirely reasonable to me to have different models for an ecosystem and market. The practice of charging different prices for the same digital good depending on the buyer’s country is generally called international price discrimination (or geo-based price discrimination). Just so you know.

benoau 1y ago

> It's no different than going to a restaurant and them serving only Pepsi products. I don't think that accurately depicts the situation. > Apple has threatened to remove creator platform Patreon from the App Store if creators use unsupported third-party billing options or disable transactions on iOS, instead of using Apple's own in-app purchasing system for Patreon's subscriptions. This happened because 5 years after Patreon published their app, Apple decided they were now due a 30% recurring cut of "indie creator" revenue. And that's ignoring that they did this while under court order to allow external payment options. And we've seen them try to force IAP purchases and subscriptions into WordPress, to Hey, and other apps too. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-says-patreon-must-switch-155232559.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-says-patreon-must-switc...

bko 1y ago
It seems ridiculous if you think about it. Imagine you're running a market and as part of that you allow vendors. The vendors have to pay some percent of sales to you, either credit card or cash. And then you start selling things in crypto thinking you can save on the market cut. It's their market. No one is forcing you to participate. But if you do you should have a good faith effort to abide by the rules. If not, bow out. If enough people bow out then he market is no longer the best market and they will lose to competitor markets.
- benoau 1y ago
  Patreon weren't violating their rules, Patreon weren't doing anything wrong, and Patreon aren't getting anything out of this modified deal other than "their business not getting burned down if they comply" with a new condition that compelled a 30% fee. For which customers had to pay an extra $4.50/month in fees per creator they support.
- microtonal 1y ago
  It's their market. No one is forcing you to participate. On the regular 'market', you have plenty of options. You can sell to supermarkets, you can make a webshop, you can sell on a local market, etc. You could even directly sell goods from your own farm (which works in a lot of places). Similarly, a buyer can get most products from a lot of places. If you make an smartphone app, you practically only have two markets: the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. They can dictate outsized fees and draconic rules, because there is no other way to sell your product. Moreover, they can kill apps that they decide to compete with or pick winners. It is everything but a free market and the EU is right to regulate it with the DSA/DMA.
- saubeidl 1y ago
  > It's their market. It's not. That's the entire point. The EU Single Market is the EU's. No trying to take it away, that is exactly what this is all about. We, the European people, are the ones that have set up the world's largest market of well-off consumers. Apple is the one that is trying to subdivide it and create a walled-off area where they don't have to follow our rules.

addandsubtract 1y ago

> I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). It changed with Google's announcement yesterday.

callc 1y ago

> I don't care about competition, I care about the best product. Competition is how you get to the best product. Lack of competition leads to malaise of product improvements as the market dominators are owning the space and happily exert their power over people. > It's no different than going to a restaurant and them serving only Pepsi products. There are two viable players for the average Joe in the phone market. There are I would guess 200-300 restaurants in my not so big town. The number of choices matters a lot. If there were only two real option for restaurants around me, I would hope the management does not decide to be evil and lower food quality, jack up prices, or collude to only offer specific food while the other restaurant does not offer. Also, in the restaurant example, we always have the option to buy our own food and cook at home. So to match the phone market situation, imagine cooking at home is illegal, and the only food you can eat is from two restaurants.

bko 1y ago
> Competition is how you get to the best product. Lack of competition leads to malaise of product improvements as the market dominators are owning the space and happily exert their power over people. I think the malaise is when you require every company to take the exact same approach. Let two companies take different approach. One is walled garden and the other is bazaar. I wish we had more walled gardens personally. I'm tired of wading through hundreds of results in Amazon through shady third party sellers. At this point I go to Best Buy, knowing that they won't sell me absolute garbage. Curation is very useful.
- Refreeze5224 1y ago
  This seems like a distinction without a difference. Curation is totally allowed, in Apple's own app store. They just can't prevent people from using their devices how they see fit to maintain that curation. > I think the malaise is when you require every company to take the exact same approach. I think you're arguing against yourself here. The way to allow companies to take different approaches is to require any app store/approach be allowed. Then Apple can curate, FOSS app stores like FDroid can use their approach, etc. Fundamentally I think this issue is about ownership. Modern companies/products like to pretend that you don't own the things you buy, because it makes them money. Apple loves their 30% cut of apps, and hides behind "protecting the users" to maintain it, but they really want to control the your device. People would never ever tolerate not being in full control and maintaining true ownership of most things in their lives, but for some reason we let it slide with phones, which, like it or not, are one of the most important objects people own. They should be treated that way, and provided full ownership of them.

latexr 1y ago

> I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45017028 > I don't care about competition, I care about the best product. You can’t have the best product if there’s no competition. > And if Google fails to deliver the best product, I'll switch. You won’t if there’s nothing to switch to because due to monopolistic practices no other service was able to survive.

manirelli 1y ago

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/google-will-block-sideloading-of-unverified-android-apps-starting-next-year/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/google-will-block-si...

wkat4242 1y ago

> Android exits, it's relatively open. I can download an APK and easily install it on my device (unless this changed since I last did this). It didn't yet but it will change next year. All APKs will have to be signed by Google then.