5 ms·

Have you considered that windows is good enough for the end users and represents good value? People don't want to make a choice or have to care about what they

Have you considered that windows is good enough for the end users and represents good value? People don't want to make a choice or have to care about what they buy. The ISVs are quite happy to ship windows as they have reusable experience and it's just plugging things together. The reason no market share destroying competition has appeared is that people are quite happy apart from a minority of users who are quite vocal. consider that are more windows power users than there are mac users and Linux users combined. I'm a Linux user (heavy with 15 years' experience) but i don't have a problem with the current situation.

shmerl 14y ago
Have you considered that windows is good enough for the end users and represents good value? Same as Linux in this day and age (if user has such option). The reason no market share destroying competition has appeared is that people are quite happy apart from a minority of users who are quite vocal. With this logic any kind of monopoly can be justified, but it doesn't make monopoly good per se. Artificial lack of competition is bad. consider that are more windows power users than there are mac users and Linux users combined. Network effect is part of the problem, but the bundling issue is just a method to feed it. So one way to break it - is to remove the bundling blocker to allow fair competition.
- eckyptang 14y ago
  Firstly, reinforcing my position before I say something good about Microsoft: I am a Linux user and have been for 15 years. Before that, it was Solaris and HP/UX. I do a fair bit of work with Windows, particularly .Net at the moment. I'm pretty much neutral. It's a box that does a job. I don't get these arguments: the user has the option. In the UK, there are magazines on every shelf in every newsagent pushing Linux and in every PC related stored they are pretty much giving Ubuntu away (yes they even had a box at the checkout in PC World with free CDs - completely untouched). You can buy PC's with it preinstalled and buy PCs with no operating system so you can install it. I know MANY "normal" non enthusiast and non power users from social housing unemployed to professionals who have used Linux distributions and just end up back with Windows. Everyone knows what Linux is or has heard of it. I don't think Microsoft is a monopoly - they just work pretty well on the desktop for most users (well they did until Windows 8 but I'm not going there in this discussion ;-). The competition is there but it's not really competition in mindshare as people are comfortable. If you forcibly removed the bundling, you are going to get nowhere i.e. people saying "Can I just have it with Windows on it". Also, at the sales desk, the salesperson is going to make a few extra readies for selling Windows with a PC so you're going to lose anyway. Take a look at where IBM is now compared to the late 1980's. They monopolised and beat their competition to death and they didn't survive in that market. Microsoft's time will come if they fuck up or piss off a lot of people, but at the moment they do what people want for a price that people want to pay. The idealisms of "Microsoft sucks" and is a "monopoly" remind me of Slashdot circa 2001 onwards where OSX and Linux were going to take over the world and destroy Microsoft. Sorry it ain't going to happen and I'm not really that bothered myself.
  - takluyver 14y ago
    > In the UK, there are magazines on every shelf in every newsagent pushing Linux and in every PC related stored they are pretty much giving Ubuntu away (yes they even had a box at the checkout in PC World with free CDs - completely untouched). You can buy PC's with it preinstalled and buy PCs with no operating system so you can install it. Is this the same UK I live in? The newsagents I see might have one Linux magazine lurking behind the iPad magazines. And you really have to go looking for computers that come with Linux preinstalled or no OS. Dell stopped offering them online, and I haven't seen a Linux PC in a retail store since the brief wave of Linux netbooks. I found a small business that sold me a computer with my choice of distro on, but they didn't really promote the option at all. > If you forcibly removed the bundling, you are going to get nowhere i.e. people saying "Can I just have it with Windows on it" "Sure, that will be £20 extra" (a complete guess at the OEM Windows price) Obviously preinstalled Linux systems aren't going to topple Windows overnight - there's a lot of network effects and familiarity there. But at the same time, it would definitely benefit Linux adoption if consumers regularly saw an option to use Ubuntu, say, with known-good hardware and without having to install it themselves. Not many would take it at first, but a few people would go home and look it up. > Everyone knows what Linux is or has heard of it. Many people have heard of it, certainly, but they often have some vague idea that it's a command-line interface for ultra nerdy experts. That's why Android and Ubuntu both avoid using the word 'Linux' in their public branding.
    - shmerl 14y ago
      >Many people have heard of it, certainly, but they often have some vague idea that it's a command-line interface for ultra nerdy experts. That's why Android and Ubuntu both avoid using the word 'Linux' in their public branding. That actually is a lack of gratitude and failure to improve Linux image on their part. But I agree with the rest of the above. Removing the bundling won't magically solve all issues, but it's a huge blocker which prevents any kind of solutions from reaching the broader audience.
      - takluyver 14y ago
        > [Avoiding the word Linux] actually is a lack of gratitude and failure to improve Linux image on their part I don't see it quite like that. Firstly, I'm not sure that the people working on Linux (the kernel) particularly want to be a popular brand - it would mean a deluge of naive questions, apart from anything else. Secondly, Ubuntu benefits from Linux, GNU tools, X, Gnome, Debian, and many other projects. In techie circles, they readily acknowledge that it wouldn't be possible without the work done in those upstream projects. But trying to fit them into the public branding would confuse users.

shmerl 14y ago

Have you considered that windows is good enough for the end users and represents good value? Same as Linux in this day and age (if user has such option). The reason no market share destroying competition has appeared is that people are quite happy apart from a minority of users who are quite vocal. With this logic any kind of monopoly can be justified, but it doesn't make monopoly good per se. Artificial lack of competition is bad. consider that are more windows power users than there are mac users and Linux users combined. Network effect is part of the problem, but the bundling issue is just a method to feed it. So one way to break it - is to remove the bundling blocker to allow fair competition.

eckyptang 14y ago
Firstly, reinforcing my position before I say something good about Microsoft: I am a Linux user and have been for 15 years. Before that, it was Solaris and HP/UX. I do a fair bit of work with Windows, particularly .Net at the moment. I'm pretty much neutral. It's a box that does a job. I don't get these arguments: the user has the option. In the UK, there are magazines on every shelf in every newsagent pushing Linux and in every PC related stored they are pretty much giving Ubuntu away (yes they even had a box at the checkout in PC World with free CDs - completely untouched). You can buy PC's with it preinstalled and buy PCs with no operating system so you can install it. I know MANY "normal" non enthusiast and non power users from social housing unemployed to professionals who have used Linux distributions and just end up back with Windows. Everyone knows what Linux is or has heard of it. I don't think Microsoft is a monopoly - they just work pretty well on the desktop for most users (well they did until Windows 8 but I'm not going there in this discussion ;-). The competition is there but it's not really competition in mindshare as people are comfortable. If you forcibly removed the bundling, you are going to get nowhere i.e. people saying "Can I just have it with Windows on it". Also, at the sales desk, the salesperson is going to make a few extra readies for selling Windows with a PC so you're going to lose anyway. Take a look at where IBM is now compared to the late 1980's. They monopolised and beat their competition to death and they didn't survive in that market. Microsoft's time will come if they fuck up or piss off a lot of people, but at the moment they do what people want for a price that people want to pay. The idealisms of "Microsoft sucks" and is a "monopoly" remind me of Slashdot circa 2001 onwards where OSX and Linux were going to take over the world and destroy Microsoft. Sorry it ain't going to happen and I'm not really that bothered myself.
- takluyver 14y ago
  > In the UK, there are magazines on every shelf in every newsagent pushing Linux and in every PC related stored they are pretty much giving Ubuntu away (yes they even had a box at the checkout in PC World with free CDs - completely untouched). You can buy PC's with it preinstalled and buy PCs with no operating system so you can install it. Is this the same UK I live in? The newsagents I see might have one Linux magazine lurking behind the iPad magazines. And you really have to go looking for computers that come with Linux preinstalled or no OS. Dell stopped offering them online, and I haven't seen a Linux PC in a retail store since the brief wave of Linux netbooks. I found a small business that sold me a computer with my choice of distro on, but they didn't really promote the option at all. > If you forcibly removed the bundling, you are going to get nowhere i.e. people saying "Can I just have it with Windows on it" "Sure, that will be £20 extra" (a complete guess at the OEM Windows price) Obviously preinstalled Linux systems aren't going to topple Windows overnight - there's a lot of network effects and familiarity there. But at the same time, it would definitely benefit Linux adoption if consumers regularly saw an option to use Ubuntu, say, with known-good hardware and without having to install it themselves. Not many would take it at first, but a few people would go home and look it up. > Everyone knows what Linux is or has heard of it. Many people have heard of it, certainly, but they often have some vague idea that it's a command-line interface for ultra nerdy experts. That's why Android and Ubuntu both avoid using the word 'Linux' in their public branding.
  - shmerl 14y ago
    >Many people have heard of it, certainly, but they often have some vague idea that it's a command-line interface for ultra nerdy experts. That's why Android and Ubuntu both avoid using the word 'Linux' in their public branding. That actually is a lack of gratitude and failure to improve Linux image on their part. But I agree with the rest of the above. Removing the bundling won't magically solve all issues, but it's a huge blocker which prevents any kind of solutions from reaching the broader audience.
    - takluyver 14y ago
      > [Avoiding the word Linux] actually is a lack of gratitude and failure to improve Linux image on their part I don't see it quite like that. Firstly, I'm not sure that the people working on Linux (the kernel) particularly want to be a popular brand - it would mean a deluge of naive questions, apart from anything else. Secondly, Ubuntu benefits from Linux, GNU tools, X, Gnome, Debian, and many other projects. In techie circles, they readily acknowledge that it wouldn't be possible without the work done in those upstream projects. But trying to fit them into the public branding would confuse users.