3 ms·

It absolutely is? If a doctor is responsible for negligence resulting in the death of someone, they don't get a pass because they saved 10 other people in their

by Orygin 1y ago

It absolutely is? If a doctor is responsible for negligence resulting in the death of someone, they don't get a pass because they saved 10 other people in their career.

mothballed 1y ago
It's not negligent to perform a procedure knowing it will kill some of the patients who would have otherwise lived healthy lives, though.
- Orygin 1y ago
  If they would otherwise live healthy lives, why perform the procedure? Most likely the patient is informed by the practitioner about the risks and they can make an informed decision. That is not the case about ChatGPT where openAI will sell it as the next best thing since sliced bread, with a puny little warning below the page. Even worse when you see all the "AI therapy" apps that pop up everywhere, where the user may think that the AI is as-good as a real therapist, but without any of the responsibility for the company in case of issues.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Because sometimes you don't know with certainty on an individual basis, only a population basis, who is better off from the procedure. Maybe you are the one in-a-billion who dies from a vaccine, from a disease that unknowably you would never contract or would only contract it in a mild way. The doctors know if they administer it enough times they will absolutely kill someone, but they do it to save the others, although they will pretty much never bluntly put it like that for your consideration.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  If you refuse to disclose to your patient the risks and considerations, so they can have fully informed consent, it absolutely is malpractice.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Consent can sometimes be a frustrated interpretation of it. Marissa Anderson missed an appointment (according to her, because she was feeling ill) after seeking a doctor's advice on dealing with some issues with her infant repeatedly vomiting and failure to take up food. Ultimately they figured out that the child was having trouble with some of the introduced food and would only take breast milk, but the doctors worked with police to have the child taken and "treated" against their will when she did not consent to show up to an appointment on that particular day. During the forced intake the child was found to be acutely stable, with no emergent medical emergency (the kind often used to bypass consent)[], although underweight. The doctors tried to have the child put into foster care ( A doctor was recorded stating it was "not medically necessary" to transfer the baby, obfuscated as prolongation of medical care, to another location to assist in this attempt) to force the care that they wanted, but ultimately public demand (by Ammon Bundy, more notoriously known in association with 'militia' groups) forced them to relinquish on that pretty quickly. So it can be very confusing with doctors. It is malpractice if they don't get your consent. But then also malpractice if they do. [] https://freedomman.gs/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/st-lukes-2-768x711.jpg https://freedomman.gs/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/st-lukes-2-...
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      Alright, so leaving aside the other details of this story and attempting to be as neutral as possible: What is linked here is PART of a PCR (Patient Care Report) from a BLS (Basic Life Support, i.e. EMT, someone with ~160 hours of training), working for a transport agency, or on an IFT (interfacility) unit. "No interventions" doesn't mean the patient was not unwell. In fact, "Impression: Dehydration". It means that the patient was stable, and that no interventions would be required from the BLS provider (because BLS providers cannot start IV fluids, though in limited situations they can maintain them). "No acute life threats noted". As an EMT, then paramedic, then critical care paramedic, I probably transported 8,000+ patients. In 7,500+ of those, I would have made the exact same statement on my PCR. In EMS, acute life threats are "things that have a possibility of killing the patient before they get to our destination facility/hospital". The times I've noted "acute life threats" are times I've transported GSW victims with severed femoral arteries, and patients having a STEMI or in full cardiac arrest. The vast majority of my Code 3 transports (i.e. lights/sirens to the closest facility) have not had "acute life threats". The child's destination on this PCR was not foster care but to a higher level of care (St Lukes Regional Medical Center in Boise, versus the smaller facility in Meridian). A few notes: "child was found to be acutely stable" - acutely stable is not a thing. Also, the general expectation for a lower acuity interfacility transport is that no interventions en route are required. As I said, I don't know about the bigger scenario of this, but what I do know is EMS PCRs, and it is very common for people to latch on to certain phrases as "gotchas". We talked often in our PCRs about assessing "sick/not sick". Being "not sick" didn't mean you didn't have a medical issue, nor did it mean you didn't belong at a hospital; what it solely meant was "this is a patient that we need to prioritize transporting to definitive care versus attempting to stabilize on scene before doing so". I did catch these two points which give me question: > Now, I am about to show you empirical evidence that my Grandson, Baby Cyrus, was violently kidnapped by Meridian police, without cause and without evidence, that Baby Cyrus was falsely declared to be in “imminent danger,” even though CPS and St. Luke’s hospital admitted that he was not, and that my daughter and son-in-law were illegally prosecuted in secret, without due process That sounds like the issue was with the police, not with medical malpractice. I'm skeptical, though, of "illegal secret prosecutions". > Nancy had made speeches around the country in national forums and was completing a video exposing the lack of oversight in Georgia’s Department of Family and Child Services (DFCS) as well as Child Protective Services (CPS) nationally; and started to receive lots of death threats. Unfortunately her video was never published as her and her husband were murdered, being found shot to death in March 2010. > Listen, if people on the streets will murder someone else for a $100 pair of Air Jordan’s, you better believe that they will murder a Senator who threatens an $80 billion child trafficking cash machine. Okay, we're turning into conspiracy theories here. Multiple autopsies ruled this as a murder-suicide.
ACCount37 1y ago
Triage exists. And when the shit hits the fan, it takes the form of "this one isn't worth trying to save, but this one might be". It's callous and cold, and it results in more lives saved than trying to save everyone. Does ChatGPT, on the net, save more people than it dooms? Who knows. Plenty of anecdotes both ways, but we wouldn't have the reliable statistics for a long time.
- Orygin 1y ago
  Sure, triage done by a human exist and they are generally absolved from taking that decision that could kill someone (to save others). Because the situation calls for it and would otherwise result in more deaths. But other than the situation calling for it, healthcare professionals are held to a certain standard and can be litigated against for medical malpractice. That is not the case for ChatGPT apparently, and OpenAI should be held responsible for what their models do. They are very much aware of this because they did fine-tune GPT5 to avoid giving medical advice, even though it's still possible to work around.
- habinero 1y ago
  Triage exists because in a mass casualty event, medical resources need to go to the most urgent cases first. Triage is not a punch card that says if you drag 9 people out of a burning building, you can shoot someone on the street for free.

by Orygin 1y ago

It absolutely is? If a doctor is responsible for negligence resulting in the death of someone, they don't get a pass because they saved 10 other people in their career.

mothballed 1y ago

It's not negligent to perform a procedure knowing it will kill some of the patients who would have otherwise lived healthy lives, though.

Orygin 1y ago
If they would otherwise live healthy lives, why perform the procedure? Most likely the patient is informed by the practitioner about the risks and they can make an informed decision. That is not the case about ChatGPT where openAI will sell it as the next best thing since sliced bread, with a puny little warning below the page. Even worse when you see all the "AI therapy" apps that pop up everywhere, where the user may think that the AI is as-good as a real therapist, but without any of the responsibility for the company in case of issues.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Because sometimes you don't know with certainty on an individual basis, only a population basis, who is better off from the procedure. Maybe you are the one in-a-billion who dies from a vaccine, from a disease that unknowably you would never contract or would only contract it in a mild way. The doctors know if they administer it enough times they will absolutely kill someone, but they do it to save the others, although they will pretty much never bluntly put it like that for your consideration.
FireBeyond 1y ago
If you refuse to disclose to your patient the risks and considerations, so they can have fully informed consent, it absolutely is malpractice.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Consent can sometimes be a frustrated interpretation of it. Marissa Anderson missed an appointment (according to her, because she was feeling ill) after seeking a doctor's advice on dealing with some issues with her infant repeatedly vomiting and failure to take up food. Ultimately they figured out that the child was having trouble with some of the introduced food and would only take breast milk, but the doctors worked with police to have the child taken and "treated" against their will when she did not consent to show up to an appointment on that particular day. During the forced intake the child was found to be acutely stable, with no emergent medical emergency (the kind often used to bypass consent)[], although underweight. The doctors tried to have the child put into foster care ( A doctor was recorded stating it was "not medically necessary" to transfer the baby, obfuscated as prolongation of medical care, to another location to assist in this attempt) to force the care that they wanted, but ultimately public demand (by Ammon Bundy, more notoriously known in association with 'militia' groups) forced them to relinquish on that pretty quickly. So it can be very confusing with doctors. It is malpractice if they don't get your consent. But then also malpractice if they do. [] https://freedomman.gs/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/st-lukes-2-768x711.jpg https://freedomman.gs/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/st-lukes-2-...
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    Alright, so leaving aside the other details of this story and attempting to be as neutral as possible: What is linked here is PART of a PCR (Patient Care Report) from a BLS (Basic Life Support, i.e. EMT, someone with ~160 hours of training), working for a transport agency, or on an IFT (interfacility) unit. "No interventions" doesn't mean the patient was not unwell. In fact, "Impression: Dehydration". It means that the patient was stable, and that no interventions would be required from the BLS provider (because BLS providers cannot start IV fluids, though in limited situations they can maintain them). "No acute life threats noted". As an EMT, then paramedic, then critical care paramedic, I probably transported 8,000+ patients. In 7,500+ of those, I would have made the exact same statement on my PCR. In EMS, acute life threats are "things that have a possibility of killing the patient before they get to our destination facility/hospital". The times I've noted "acute life threats" are times I've transported GSW victims with severed femoral arteries, and patients having a STEMI or in full cardiac arrest. The vast majority of my Code 3 transports (i.e. lights/sirens to the closest facility) have not had "acute life threats". The child's destination on this PCR was not foster care but to a higher level of care (St Lukes Regional Medical Center in Boise, versus the smaller facility in Meridian). A few notes: "child was found to be acutely stable" - acutely stable is not a thing. Also, the general expectation for a lower acuity interfacility transport is that no interventions en route are required. As I said, I don't know about the bigger scenario of this, but what I do know is EMS PCRs, and it is very common for people to latch on to certain phrases as "gotchas". We talked often in our PCRs about assessing "sick/not sick". Being "not sick" didn't mean you didn't have a medical issue, nor did it mean you didn't belong at a hospital; what it solely meant was "this is a patient that we need to prioritize transporting to definitive care versus attempting to stabilize on scene before doing so". I did catch these two points which give me question: > Now, I am about to show you empirical evidence that my Grandson, Baby Cyrus, was violently kidnapped by Meridian police, without cause and without evidence, that Baby Cyrus was falsely declared to be in “imminent danger,” even though CPS and St. Luke’s hospital admitted that he was not, and that my daughter and son-in-law were illegally prosecuted in secret, without due process That sounds like the issue was with the police, not with medical malpractice. I'm skeptical, though, of "illegal secret prosecutions". > Nancy had made speeches around the country in national forums and was completing a video exposing the lack of oversight in Georgia’s Department of Family and Child Services (DFCS) as well as Child Protective Services (CPS) nationally; and started to receive lots of death threats. Unfortunately her video was never published as her and her husband were murdered, being found shot to death in March 2010. > Listen, if people on the streets will murder someone else for a $100 pair of Air Jordan’s, you better believe that they will murder a Senator who threatens an $80 billion child trafficking cash machine. Okay, we're turning into conspiracy theories here. Multiple autopsies ruled this as a murder-suicide.

ACCount37 1y ago

Triage exists. And when the shit hits the fan, it takes the form of "this one isn't worth trying to save, but this one might be". It's callous and cold, and it results in more lives saved than trying to save everyone. Does ChatGPT, on the net, save more people than it dooms? Who knows. Plenty of anecdotes both ways, but we wouldn't have the reliable statistics for a long time.

Orygin 1y ago
Sure, triage done by a human exist and they are generally absolved from taking that decision that could kill someone (to save others). Because the situation calls for it and would otherwise result in more deaths. But other than the situation calling for it, healthcare professionals are held to a certain standard and can be litigated against for medical malpractice. That is not the case for ChatGPT apparently, and OpenAI should be held responsible for what their models do. They are very much aware of this because they did fine-tune GPT5 to avoid giving medical advice, even though it's still possible to work around.
habinero 1y ago
Triage exists because in a mass casualty event, medical resources need to go to the most urgent cases first. Triage is not a punch card that says if you drag 9 people out of a burning building, you can shoot someone on the street for free.