3 ms·

makes it too easy to have way too much goddamn light in every corner of every street That's essentially correct, but modern tech also makes it relatively easy

by stinos 1y ago

makes it too easy to have way too much goddamn light in every corner of every street That's essentially correct, but modern tech also makes it relatively easy (and in the end cheaper compared to non-LED) to - make lights with a properly focused well directed beam instead of flooding the whole place; we have a new one close to our house and it sheds light only on the street itself to the point you can almost see a nice straight line where the light beam stops and beyond that line it's markedly darker than it used to be even though the light beam itself has a higher intensity - make lights which emit in wavelengths which are less environmentally harmful for flora/fauna - make each lantern remote controllable (on/off/dimming); main street lights here dim after 11pm and are truned off in all secondary streets (there's a website dedcated to listing the best models for all of this but I cannot find it anymore) The thing which is lacking here mostly is awareness and governments willing to implement this properly. We live in a rather small rural village which did implement all of this - too bad there's no research project assesing before and after but since it counters most of the negatives I assume it should turn out positive for the environment. Birds are definitely positively affected by it: execpt for owls I don't hear any singing in the middle of the night anymore. And in any case it feels pretty 'normal' to come home at night while it's properly dark.

throw0101a 1y ago
> That's essentially correct, but modern tech also makes it relatively easy (and in the end cheaper compared to non-LED) I don't think modern tech is really needed for (some of?) the things you list: * we've know about lenses and focusing for centuries (the highly directional Fresnel lens was invented ~1815). * incandescent lights have been around for a century and they were <3500K since the beginning; sodium street lights (<3000K) have been around for decades too It is not so much modern tech that's the thing as modern (better) understanding: we've actually done research into the topic, and that research is more widely known; see for example this report by the city of Toronto on effective lighting (that mentions Dark Sky certification by name): * https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/8ff6-city-planning-bird-effective-lighting.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/8ff6-city-...
Lammy 1y ago
> it sheds light only on the street itself to the point you can almost see a nice straight line where the light beam stops and beyond that line it's markedly darker than it used to be even though the light beam itself has a higher intensity This is one of the biggest contributors to the uncanny movie-set feeling for me. I don't like it :/
quickthrowman 1y ago
Here’s the thing: all of those things you mentioned (dimming, occupancy sensing, focused beams, light shields to prevent light pollution on other properties) are options that can be added on during manufacturing, but an engineer needs to specify that those options are required or else someone will win the bid with a more basic light pole head without all those options. The customer (municipality or state) often will compare the nice lights with all of the options you listed against a more basic light during the planning phase and opt to spend less money on the more basic lighting.
- stinos 1y ago
  Indeed I implied this when saying 'willing to implement', but one thing to note: the customer should be smart enough to consider total cost of oownership. I.e. there's the price of the light but also the price of having to replace it and having it on etc. The extra price of functionality allowing to decrease the amount of on time might pay itself back. I vaguely recall in my municipality this was one of the reasons they went for the slightly more expensive initial cost of full control ability anyway - not completely sure though.
  - quickthrowman 1y ago
    > the customer should be smart enough Oh how I wish that were true in all cases :) Integral occupancy sensors are usually an easy sell, like you said the energy savings usually cover the added cost of the sensor and relay, given that most LED pole heads draw anywhere from 50w to 150w. It also simplifies installation and maintenance since you don’t need to switch a whole line of poles with a single occ sensor and contactor. The more esoteric options are usually a harder sell, stuff like glare shields and non-standard optics/distribution. I see options like this selected when a commercial property borders residential property, but it’s atypical. Photometric studies can be done to figure out what options should be selected, but the customer, engineer, and contractor are all overworked and don’t always design things the way they could (or should) be designed. I will say that wealthier areas tend to have the budgets and time to go the extra mile on stuff like this. FWIW, one of the things I do at my day job is sell LED pole heads (and a full range of electrical services) to municipalities (and others). Here’s an example pole head cutsheet that shows the options that can be selected for reference: https://pdmassets.azureedge.net/library/LL/documents/specsheets/DSX2-LED.pdf https://pdmassets.azureedge.net/library/LL/documents/specshe...
actionfromafar 1y ago
Best case we will get a lost generation before these changes are made.
- Aerbil313 1y ago
  Not me! I'm taking melatonin and automating my home lights to resemble natural lightning levels in order to mitigate.
blaze33 1y ago
> there's a website dedcated to listing the best models for all of this but I cannot find it anymore Could be the DarkSky approved products: https://darksky.org/what-we-do/darksky-approved/ https://darksky.org/what-we-do/darksky-approved/
- stinos 1y ago
  Thanks, yes that was the one.

by stinos 1y ago

throw0101a 1y ago

> That's essentially correct, but modern tech also makes it relatively easy (and in the end cheaper compared to non-LED) I don't think modern tech is really needed for (some of?) the things you list: * we've know about lenses and focusing for centuries (the highly directional Fresnel lens was invented ~1815). * incandescent lights have been around for a century and they were <3500K since the beginning; sodium street lights (<3000K) have been around for decades too It is not so much modern tech that's the thing as modern (better) understanding: we've actually done research into the topic, and that research is more widely known; see for example this report by the city of Toronto on effective lighting (that mentions Dark Sky certification by name): * https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/8ff6-city-planning-bird-effective-lighting.pdf https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/8ff6-city-...

Lammy 1y ago

> it sheds light only on the street itself to the point you can almost see a nice straight line where the light beam stops and beyond that line it's markedly darker than it used to be even though the light beam itself has a higher intensity This is one of the biggest contributors to the uncanny movie-set feeling for me. I don't like it :/

quickthrowman 1y ago

Here’s the thing: all of those things you mentioned (dimming, occupancy sensing, focused beams, light shields to prevent light pollution on other properties) are options that can be added on during manufacturing, but an engineer needs to specify that those options are required or else someone will win the bid with a more basic light pole head without all those options. The customer (municipality or state) often will compare the nice lights with all of the options you listed against a more basic light during the planning phase and opt to spend less money on the more basic lighting.

stinos 1y ago
Indeed I implied this when saying 'willing to implement', but one thing to note: the customer should be smart enough to consider total cost of oownership. I.e. there's the price of the light but also the price of having to replace it and having it on etc. The extra price of functionality allowing to decrease the amount of on time might pay itself back. I vaguely recall in my municipality this was one of the reasons they went for the slightly more expensive initial cost of full control ability anyway - not completely sure though.
- quickthrowman 1y ago
  > the customer should be smart enough Oh how I wish that were true in all cases :) Integral occupancy sensors are usually an easy sell, like you said the energy savings usually cover the added cost of the sensor and relay, given that most LED pole heads draw anywhere from 50w to 150w. It also simplifies installation and maintenance since you don’t need to switch a whole line of poles with a single occ sensor and contactor. The more esoteric options are usually a harder sell, stuff like glare shields and non-standard optics/distribution. I see options like this selected when a commercial property borders residential property, but it’s atypical. Photometric studies can be done to figure out what options should be selected, but the customer, engineer, and contractor are all overworked and don’t always design things the way they could (or should) be designed. I will say that wealthier areas tend to have the budgets and time to go the extra mile on stuff like this. FWIW, one of the things I do at my day job is sell LED pole heads (and a full range of electrical services) to municipalities (and others). Here’s an example pole head cutsheet that shows the options that can be selected for reference: https://pdmassets.azureedge.net/library/LL/documents/specsheets/DSX2-LED.pdf https://pdmassets.azureedge.net/library/LL/documents/specshe...

actionfromafar 1y ago

Best case we will get a lost generation before these changes are made.

Aerbil313 1y ago
Not me! I'm taking melatonin and automating my home lights to resemble natural lightning levels in order to mitigate.

blaze33 1y ago

> there's a website dedcated to listing the best models for all of this but I cannot find it anymore Could be the DarkSky approved products: https://darksky.org/what-we-do/darksky-approved/ https://darksky.org/what-we-do/darksky-approved/

stinos 1y ago
Thanks, yes that was the one.