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Ah, but now you're finally revealing the core of your argument. You seem to be effectively insisting that somebody must equate illegal immigration and legal mig

Ah, but now you're finally revealing the core of your argument. You seem to be effectively insisting that somebody must equate illegal immigration and legal migration. Am I somehow straw manning you? Because if not this is of course rather silly, as the two have little in common besides moving. Legal immigration to the US is absurdly difficult and entails extensive vetting, qualification, and a lengthy process of 'proving' oneself. Illegal immigration requires breaking the law to enter a country, breaking the law to remain in that country, and then generally also continuing to break the law as you reside in the country. So with one you're getting the best of the best and with the other you're getting people who view the law as something to be followed when convenient.

wat10000 1y ago
You're absolutely strawmanning me. Or do you equate deporting a green card holder with a decades-old marijuana conviction as being against illegal immigration? Do you think that suddenly revoking status from legal immigrants and then deporting them is only being against illegal immigrants because you revoked their status first? "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." You can't claim to only be against dishonest men when you do this sort of thing. I do think that this administration's actions against illegal immigrants have been so bad that everyone responsible should be imprisoned. But they are not only against illegal immigrants.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  I don't follow your bubbles, so I am looking things up on the fly, but the only case I could find of somebody deported "for a decades-old marijuana" conviction was this [1] individual who "has a lengthy criminal record with convictions for distributing cocaine and marijuana, assault and disorderly conduct." And it turns out his deportation was not even ordered by this administration. It was ordered a decade ago after he was imprisoned for some crime while already on probation for yet another crime. Obviously you don't think people like this are desirable immigrants, so this likely gets back to the bubble issue. While it's possible I'm referencing the wrong case, I suspect the issue is more like that whatever bubble you consume did genuinely just frame this as 'Trump deports man for decades old marijuana conviction' when I think you can see that that is plainly false. But if anybody mentioned this in your bubble, they would certainly be rapidly silenced because rage is far more relevant than facts in these bubbles. And consider that the media you're consuming is driving you to think that not only are these actions "heinous" but even that the current administration should be imprisoned for what they're doing, and I expect you probably wish even worse - though may not be willing to say it. This is the exact radicalizing phenomena I was talking about at the very top of this thread. [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/vorasack-phommasith-green-card-revoked-2097072 https://www.newsweek.com/vorasack-phommasith-green-card-revo...
  - wat10000 1y ago
    I'm referring to this: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-released-mass-mom-no-144711395.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-released-mass-mom-no... She wasn't deported, hooray! She was still held in bad conditions for over a week, denied necessary medical care, and then released far from home with no resources. Do you think this is acceptable treatment of a legal immigrant? Or do you believe that an old marijuana conviction is enough to consider her "illegal" and thus doesn't count as an action against legal immigrants? Or maybe it's just cherry-picked and not representative? Please explain how "the media [I'm] consuming is driving [me] to think that" sending people to CECOT without trial is heinous. (Note that the "without trial" part is an intensifier, but it would still be heinous even with one.) I'm pretty sure it's the conditions in CECOT and a belief in basic human rights that drives me to think that. Are you asserting that CECOT is actually fine and I'm getting a distorted picture of what it's like there? Are you asserting that my belief that it's heinous to imprison people in awful conditions would disappear if I had a more objective view? Do note that every time you justify one of these things, you're proving my point. You need to go for the ignorance angle if you want to argue that a vast majority of Republicans support immigration. Arguing that they are aware of what's happening but it just doesn't qualify as being against immigration is not going to work.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      Ok, so your anecdote didn't actually happen. That could explain why I was having trouble finding it. Think about the fact that the rather relevant update of 'ok, she actually wasn't even deported' didn't make it into your bubble, and why that might be. And more generally, again look at what you're doing here. You're not really making any argument against the claim that e.g. Republicans support immigration. You're instead looking for some random anecdote that turned out poorly on the enforcement against illegal immigration. People in the hundreds of thousands have now been deported. If 99.9% of these cases are handled in the most amazingly professional and reasonable manner, that still means hundreds would not be. You're fishing for that 0.1% to try to frame that as being representative of the 99.9%. I think it's equally obvious that there probably are some issues at the fringe, there always are, as that that things are going perfectly smoothly and reasonably in the overwhelming majority of cases. As for CECOT, I've already answered this. The US does not deport El Salvadorans to CECOT. They deport them to their home country. What happens at that point is up to their home country. And El Salvador has cracked down hard on any sort of viable gang affiliation which has sent their country from one of the most dangerous in the world to one of the top 10 safest places in the world with a genuine government approval rating that is at 90%+.

wat10000 1y ago

You're absolutely strawmanning me. Or do you equate deporting a green card holder with a decades-old marijuana conviction as being against illegal immigration? Do you think that suddenly revoking status from legal immigrants and then deporting them is only being against illegal immigrants because you revoked their status first? "If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." You can't claim to only be against dishonest men when you do this sort of thing. I do think that this administration's actions against illegal immigrants have been so bad that everyone responsible should be imprisoned. But they are not only against illegal immigrants.

somenameforme 1y ago
I don't follow your bubbles, so I am looking things up on the fly, but the only case I could find of somebody deported "for a decades-old marijuana" conviction was this [1] individual who "has a lengthy criminal record with convictions for distributing cocaine and marijuana, assault and disorderly conduct." And it turns out his deportation was not even ordered by this administration. It was ordered a decade ago after he was imprisoned for some crime while already on probation for yet another crime. Obviously you don't think people like this are desirable immigrants, so this likely gets back to the bubble issue. While it's possible I'm referencing the wrong case, I suspect the issue is more like that whatever bubble you consume did genuinely just frame this as 'Trump deports man for decades old marijuana conviction' when I think you can see that that is plainly false. But if anybody mentioned this in your bubble, they would certainly be rapidly silenced because rage is far more relevant than facts in these bubbles. And consider that the media you're consuming is driving you to think that not only are these actions "heinous" but even that the current administration should be imprisoned for what they're doing, and I expect you probably wish even worse - though may not be willing to say it. This is the exact radicalizing phenomena I was talking about at the very top of this thread. [1] - https://www.newsweek.com/vorasack-phommasith-green-card-revoked-2097072 https://www.newsweek.com/vorasack-phommasith-green-card-revo...
- wat10000 1y ago
  I'm referring to this: https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-released-mass-mom-no-144711395.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/ice-released-mass-mom-no... She wasn't deported, hooray! She was still held in bad conditions for over a week, denied necessary medical care, and then released far from home with no resources. Do you think this is acceptable treatment of a legal immigrant? Or do you believe that an old marijuana conviction is enough to consider her "illegal" and thus doesn't count as an action against legal immigrants? Or maybe it's just cherry-picked and not representative? Please explain how "the media [I'm] consuming is driving [me] to think that" sending people to CECOT without trial is heinous. (Note that the "without trial" part is an intensifier, but it would still be heinous even with one.) I'm pretty sure it's the conditions in CECOT and a belief in basic human rights that drives me to think that. Are you asserting that CECOT is actually fine and I'm getting a distorted picture of what it's like there? Are you asserting that my belief that it's heinous to imprison people in awful conditions would disappear if I had a more objective view? Do note that every time you justify one of these things, you're proving my point. You need to go for the ignorance angle if you want to argue that a vast majority of Republicans support immigration. Arguing that they are aware of what's happening but it just doesn't qualify as being against immigration is not going to work.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Ok, so your anecdote didn't actually happen. That could explain why I was having trouble finding it. Think about the fact that the rather relevant update of 'ok, she actually wasn't even deported' didn't make it into your bubble, and why that might be. And more generally, again look at what you're doing here. You're not really making any argument against the claim that e.g. Republicans support immigration. You're instead looking for some random anecdote that turned out poorly on the enforcement against illegal immigration. People in the hundreds of thousands have now been deported. If 99.9% of these cases are handled in the most amazingly professional and reasonable manner, that still means hundreds would not be. You're fishing for that 0.1% to try to frame that as being representative of the 99.9%. I think it's equally obvious that there probably are some issues at the fringe, there always are, as that that things are going perfectly smoothly and reasonably in the overwhelming majority of cases. As for CECOT, I've already answered this. The US does not deport El Salvadorans to CECOT. They deport them to their home country. What happens at that point is up to their home country. And El Salvador has cracked down hard on any sort of viable gang affiliation which has sent their country from one of the most dangerous in the world to one of the top 10 safest places in the world with a genuine government approval rating that is at 90%+.