8 ms·

Wait consumers are paying the tariffs??

baggachipz 1y ago
That's what has been said since the beginning of this madness. People don't understand how this works, and took the word of a corrupt madman.
jrochkind1 1y ago
Whoever imports pays the tarriff. If you order something over the internet from someone not in the US, that's the consumer. There is a lot more direct consumer ordering from international vendors now than there was 20 years ago of course, for obvious reasons. Note Aug 29th is also the end of the "de minimus" rules for import duties, where a shipment worth less than $800 was exempt from import taxes and duties. Some tariffs and other import taxes have always existed, but that's why you rarely saw them when ordering consumer goods internationally to the USA, if it was worth less than $800 they were skipped. That's going away, you'll be paying import taxes on every international shipment you order directly as a consumer, even if it's a $25 t-shirt -- exactly how you pay these, at what point they are calculated by who (even how to calculate them?), and who invoices you how and when as a consumer -- well that's what nobody including international shippers have figured out yet, which is what the OP is saying means they can't really ship internationally to consumers in the USA for the time being. it's gonna be a clusterfuck. Turns out maybe there's a reason there aren't usually major changes to whole structure of import taxes made with only months notice, and tweaks and changes to them still being made only weeks/days before implementation, with no real implementation guidance provided?
- tlogan 1y ago
  Both UPS and FedEx have been handling this correctly for years. They provide a simple option where you can choose who pays the tariffs (the shipper or the recipient). If it is the recipient, you just include their email and phone number so they can be contacted. The “only” difference now is that the $800 limit no longer applies, so every shipment must include this information. Which basically means end of Temu, Alibaba express, majority of Etsy sellers, etc.
  - jrochkind1 1y ago
    Good point. The issue is, according to OP, that they don't yet know how to calculate the correct amount for new rules going into effect in 3 days, or at any rate have that knowledge implemented into their systems.
    - lxgr 1y ago
      It's not just about not being able to calculate the correct amount – they don't have a scalable way of charging anyone for it!
    - tlogan 1y ago
      The rule is from April 2, 2025 but we were all thinking about TACOs. But the congress passed the bill to permanently repeals the legal basis for the de minimis exemption so no more TACOs. And I love TACOs…
      - jrochkind1 1y ago
        End of de minimus means you have to calculate taxes on a lot more packages; but you have to know what the tariffs are to calculate them, and it seems like that's been going all over the place, and could change again at any time?
  - lxgr 1y ago
    Yes, UPS and FedEx have supported customs processing for a long time, but many direct-to-consumer vendors from China are using USPS directly via China Post, which does not. I believe there are other models now (e.g. where shipping companies bulk-import and customs clear shipments and then hand them off to USPS inside the US as domestic shipments), but the "direct parcel" USPS route going away for all formerly de-minimis-exempt parcels is still going to have a huge impact, without even considering import tariffs directly.
    - rkagerer 1y ago
      Advice to US international shippers: When shipping to Canada, UPS is the worst. They charge an arm and a leg to process the paperwork (often to the point where their brokerage fees outsize the actual duties and taxes owed), and even after I told them multiple times to use my own customs broker they seemed to "forget" or play games like delaying release of the needed paperwork. USPS is most reasonable, Purolator is OK, FedEx is still expensive but marginally better.
TylerE 1y ago
Um, yes! Who do you think was going to pay it? The Trump tariffs are the biggest tax increase in the lower and middle classes ever.
rkagerer 1y ago
Yes. But let me clarify... the order was from a US merchant and shipped to Canada. Apparently at the time we put matching reciprocal tarrifs in place (some were since removed, I'm not sure whether these included). I assumed the aluminum and steel tarrifs were only on bulk raw materials, but apparently because there was no certified "% content" declaration, customs treated the whole shipment as metal. Historically I buy a lot of high-end goods from the US on an annual basis, but after this incident I'll be actively avoiding doing so and the surprises that entails, until things get sane again.
brandall10 1y ago
It’s fundamentally how tariffs work. The importer pays the cost. If it’s a finished good to a consumer, they pay the full amount. If it’s a finished good to a retailer, it’s the wholesale cost. If it’s on components used domestically, it’s the wholesale cost of those components. In the latter two cases, it’s up to the domestic supply chain to decide how and and how much of those costs get passed on to consumers.
- quest88 1y ago
  I think op was missing the /s. His comment is a typical reply on this subject that makes fun of MAGAs who didn’t realize this.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- throwawaylaptop 1y ago
  If a US made Bolt is $1, and a Chinese one is $0.50, I buy Chinese. If now the Chinese bolt is $1, I buy American. If China tries to reduce the price of their bolt to $0.40, making it $0.80 for me, I still buy American because of quality and speed and reputation and returns, and more. So China makes the Bolt $0.25, I pay $0.50, and all is back to normal. Yes I technically paid the tariff.... Except really China lost money, the US gained money, and I paid the same because that's the price difference required for me to buy Chinese. Will it always work out like this? Idk. But this is what they are referring to when saying the exporter will pay it in the end.
  - brandall10 1y ago
    Sure, we can argue all the we want as to who 'pays', but the ultimate goal is to apply pressure to the importer to take another route.
    - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
      Or for take back some of the profits from the exporter.. China has had enough money to develope roads and buildings and companies way beyond what the US has seen in the same time frame. We don't need to allow them to make as much as they have been.
mystraline 1y ago
And this is the ignorance we have to fight against. I'll repeat this for those in the back: TARIFFS ARE PAID BY THE CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY DOING THE TARIFFS. TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES. This is excessive and illegal taxation without representation. Congratulations, party of low taxes, you now have socialist-like taxes without any of the socialist benefits.
- Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
  > TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES. Here's what gets me... EVEN IF the exporter paid the tariff, do people really think they'd just eat that cost? Of course not. They'd raise the price on the importer who would then raise the price for the end consumer. In the end, it's the consumer who pays the tariff, whether it's nominally paid by the exporter or importer.
- sowbug 1y ago
  It's regressive taxation, so for the "party of low taxes" it's totally OK.
somat 1y ago
It ends up being like sales tax in the US. It is the store that pays the sales tax(note 1), but I have never seen a store just include the tax in the price, they always pass it on as an extra charge to the end customer. And this may not be a bad thing. It is probably good for the general public to be explicitly reminded how much tax they are paying. 1: You don't add up and pay the tax board every month right? In fact this is the central theme to successfully collecting taxes, never collect them directly from the public if possable. That is a hard thankless task. It is much easier to steal them from the much more easily policed companies, before the public sees the money in the form of income tax or when they buy in the form of a sales tax. As a specific example remember the "use" tax, you were supposed to do just that, add up and pay the sales tax for things you bought out of your sales tax jurisdiction, this proved impossible to collect so with the massive increase in sales out of the tax jurisdiction(cough, amazon, cough) the courts ordered that each company had to now keep track of and pay the sales tax for every infernal piddling little sales tax area, a huge hassle for them, but that's not the states problem and it is much easier to enforce than having each person do it.
- greycol 1y ago
  It's generally not like a store, it's charged at time of import not at time of sale. The seller can choose to pre-pay for the importer (the customer) but they'll only do that if they know what to pay. If they don't know what to pay (i.e. if the tariffs change randomly with no notice) they'll tick the box that says importer pays and the buyer gets a call from customs when it arrives in the country saying pay the tariff or we impound/destroy your goods.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
Henchman21 1y ago
Please for the love all that is good and holy tell me you’re joking. If not, HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK THIS WORKED???
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jleyank 1y ago
Hope you forgot your /s... Otherwise, better go get a clue-stick somewhere.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
jmorenoamor 1y ago
Everything is paid by the customer. As a manufacturer I can temporaly absorb some costs to keep prices steady, but at some point, I have to adjust prices to maintain a reasonable margin. So yes, I will pay for my country's tariffs and you will pay for yours. It's a bad scenario where things are more expensive and both manufacturers and customers get harmed. The only ones winning are, as always, intermediaries.

That's what has been said since the beginning of this madness. People don't understand how this works, and took the word of a corrupt madman.

jrochkind1 1y ago

Whoever imports pays the tarriff. If you order something over the internet from someone not in the US, that's the consumer. There is a lot more direct consumer ordering from international vendors now than there was 20 years ago of course, for obvious reasons. Note Aug 29th is also the end of the "de minimus" rules for import duties, where a shipment worth less than $800 was exempt from import taxes and duties. Some tariffs and other import taxes have always existed, but that's why you rarely saw them when ordering consumer goods internationally to the USA, if it was worth less than $800 they were skipped. That's going away, you'll be paying import taxes on every international shipment you order directly as a consumer, even if it's a $25 t-shirt -- exactly how you pay these, at what point they are calculated by who (even how to calculate them?), and who invoices you how and when as a consumer -- well that's what nobody including international shippers have figured out yet, which is what the OP is saying means they can't really ship internationally to consumers in the USA for the time being. it's gonna be a clusterfuck. Turns out maybe there's a reason there aren't usually major changes to whole structure of import taxes made with only months notice, and tweaks and changes to them still being made only weeks/days before implementation, with no real implementation guidance provided?

tlogan 1y ago
Both UPS and FedEx have been handling this correctly for years. They provide a simple option where you can choose who pays the tariffs (the shipper or the recipient). If it is the recipient, you just include their email and phone number so they can be contacted. The “only” difference now is that the $800 limit no longer applies, so every shipment must include this information. Which basically means end of Temu, Alibaba express, majority of Etsy sellers, etc.
- jrochkind1 1y ago
  Good point. The issue is, according to OP, that they don't yet know how to calculate the correct amount for new rules going into effect in 3 days, or at any rate have that knowledge implemented into their systems.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    It's not just about not being able to calculate the correct amount – they don't have a scalable way of charging anyone for it!
  - tlogan 1y ago
    The rule is from April 2, 2025 but we were all thinking about TACOs. But the congress passed the bill to permanently repeals the legal basis for the de minimis exemption so no more TACOs. And I love TACOs…
    - jrochkind1 1y ago
      End of de minimus means you have to calculate taxes on a lot more packages; but you have to know what the tariffs are to calculate them, and it seems like that's been going all over the place, and could change again at any time?
- lxgr 1y ago
  Yes, UPS and FedEx have supported customs processing for a long time, but many direct-to-consumer vendors from China are using USPS directly via China Post, which does not. I believe there are other models now (e.g. where shipping companies bulk-import and customs clear shipments and then hand them off to USPS inside the US as domestic shipments), but the "direct parcel" USPS route going away for all formerly de-minimis-exempt parcels is still going to have a huge impact, without even considering import tariffs directly.
  - rkagerer 1y ago
    Advice to US international shippers: When shipping to Canada, UPS is the worst. They charge an arm and a leg to process the paperwork (often to the point where their brokerage fees outsize the actual duties and taxes owed), and even after I told them multiple times to use my own customs broker they seemed to "forget" or play games like delaying release of the needed paperwork. USPS is most reasonable, Purolator is OK, FedEx is still expensive but marginally better.

TylerE 1y ago

Um, yes! Who do you think was going to pay it? The Trump tariffs are the biggest tax increase in the lower and middle classes ever.

rkagerer 1y ago

Yes. But let me clarify... the order was from a US merchant and shipped to Canada. Apparently at the time we put matching reciprocal tarrifs in place (some were since removed, I'm not sure whether these included). I assumed the aluminum and steel tarrifs were only on bulk raw materials, but apparently because there was no certified "% content" declaration, customs treated the whole shipment as metal. Historically I buy a lot of high-end goods from the US on an annual basis, but after this incident I'll be actively avoiding doing so and the surprises that entails, until things get sane again.

brandall10 1y ago

It’s fundamentally how tariffs work. The importer pays the cost. If it’s a finished good to a consumer, they pay the full amount. If it’s a finished good to a retailer, it’s the wholesale cost. If it’s on components used domestically, it’s the wholesale cost of those components. In the latter two cases, it’s up to the domestic supply chain to decide how and and how much of those costs get passed on to consumers.

quest88 1y ago
I think op was missing the /s. His comment is a typical reply on this subject that makes fun of MAGAs who didn’t realize this.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
throwawaylaptop 1y ago
If a US made Bolt is $1, and a Chinese one is $0.50, I buy Chinese. If now the Chinese bolt is $1, I buy American. If China tries to reduce the price of their bolt to $0.40, making it $0.80 for me, I still buy American because of quality and speed and reputation and returns, and more. So China makes the Bolt $0.25, I pay $0.50, and all is back to normal. Yes I technically paid the tariff.... Except really China lost money, the US gained money, and I paid the same because that's the price difference required for me to buy Chinese. Will it always work out like this? Idk. But this is what they are referring to when saying the exporter will pay it in the end.
- brandall10 1y ago
  Sure, we can argue all the we want as to who 'pays', but the ultimate goal is to apply pressure to the importer to take another route.
  - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
    Or for take back some of the profits from the exporter.. China has had enough money to develope roads and buildings and companies way beyond what the US has seen in the same time frame. We don't need to allow them to make as much as they have been.

mystraline 1y ago

And this is the ignorance we have to fight against. I'll repeat this for those in the back: TARIFFS ARE PAID BY THE CITIZENS OF THE COUNTRY DOING THE TARIFFS. TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES. This is excessive and illegal taxation without representation. Congratulations, party of low taxes, you now have socialist-like taxes without any of the socialist benefits.

Sohcahtoa82 1y ago
> TARRIFFS ARE NOT PAID BY OTHER COUNTRIES. Here's what gets me... EVEN IF the exporter paid the tariff, do people really think they'd just eat that cost? Of course not. They'd raise the price on the importer who would then raise the price for the end consumer. In the end, it's the consumer who pays the tariff, whether it's nominally paid by the exporter or importer.
sowbug 1y ago
It's regressive taxation, so for the "party of low taxes" it's totally OK.

somat 1y ago

It ends up being like sales tax in the US. It is the store that pays the sales tax(note 1), but I have never seen a store just include the tax in the price, they always pass it on as an extra charge to the end customer. And this may not be a bad thing. It is probably good for the general public to be explicitly reminded how much tax they are paying. 1: You don't add up and pay the tax board every month right? In fact this is the central theme to successfully collecting taxes, never collect them directly from the public if possable. That is a hard thankless task. It is much easier to steal them from the much more easily policed companies, before the public sees the money in the form of income tax or when they buy in the form of a sales tax. As a specific example remember the "use" tax, you were supposed to do just that, add up and pay the sales tax for things you bought out of your sales tax jurisdiction, this proved impossible to collect so with the massive increase in sales out of the tax jurisdiction(cough, amazon, cough) the courts ordered that each company had to now keep track of and pay the sales tax for every infernal piddling little sales tax area, a huge hassle for them, but that's not the states problem and it is much easier to enforce than having each person do it.

greycol 1y ago
It's generally not like a store, it's charged at time of import not at time of sale. The seller can choose to pre-pay for the importer (the customer) but they'll only do that if they know what to pay. If they don't know what to pay (i.e. if the tariffs change randomly with no notice) they'll tick the box that says importer pays and the buyer gets a call from customs when it arrives in the country saying pay the tariff or we impound/destroy your goods.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

Henchman21 1y ago

Please for the love all that is good and holy tell me you’re joking. If not, HOW THE HELL DID YOU THINK THIS WORKED???

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jleyank 1y ago

Hope you forgot your /s... Otherwise, better go get a clue-stick somewhere.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

jmorenoamor 1y ago

Everything is paid by the customer. As a manufacturer I can temporaly absorb some costs to keep prices steady, but at some point, I have to adjust prices to maintain a reasonable margin. So yes, I will pay for my country's tariffs and you will pay for yours. It's a bad scenario where things are more expensive and both manufacturers and customers get harmed. The only ones winning are, as always, intermediaries.