4 ms·

FYI The entire state of Michigan falls within the 100-mile border zone, where searches do not have as much protection: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/bo

FYI The entire state of Michigan falls within the 100-mile border zone, where searches do not have as much protection: https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/border-zone Also friendly reminder that "the Constitution does not grant aliens any protections when trying to enter the United States." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_ex_rel._Knauff_v._Shaughnessy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_ex_rel._Knauff_v...

tptacek 1y ago
The 100-mile border zone thing is a myth ACLU uses to fundraise. There have been SCOTUS cases knocking the idea down. There has to be some nexus to an actual border crossing for "border zone" rules to apply. About the most it seems the government can sustainably do is set up fixed checkpoints, and even those are legally problematic. This comes up on HN several times a year; there are longer discussions about it available in the search bar.
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  How is it a myth? https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/13/what-is-usa-border-enforcement-zone/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/13/what-is-usa-border-en... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://www.pennstatelawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/3-Anthony-100-Mile-Zone.pdf https://www.pennstatelawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/0... https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=sjlcr https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... https://www.truthorfiction.com/supreme-court-100-miles-border-ruling/ https://www.truthorfiction.com/supreme-court-100-miles-borde... https://brownpoliticalreview.org/constitution-100-miles-questionable-nature-u-s-interior-checkpoints/ https://brownpoliticalreview.org/constitution-100-miles-ques... https://ballsandstrikes.org/legal-culture/border-patrol-100-mile-zone-explainer/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/legal-culture/border-patrol-100-...
  - tptacek 1y ago
    Read the Penn State Law Review article you just pasted. Nobody's questioning whether CBP itself acts abusively within the US. As the law review article observes, CBP's abuses have little to do with the "100 mile" thing; they detained Sen. Patrick Leahy by the side of the road more than 100 miles way from any nominal border. The article goes into great detail about what the courts have authorized; it's nothing like ACLU's claim. This is one area in which I think ACLU's advocacy is actively harmful: they're convincing people that the USG has statutory authorization to do things, things they actually do, for which they in fact have no authorization.
    - ranger_danger 1y ago
      I did, and: > Originating in a decades-old federal statute, CBP has the authority to conduct stops and searches within a “reasonable distance” of a border, defined by regulation as 100 miles. Does not sound like a myth to me... https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/287.1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/287.1 In fact this seems to say that not only is a 100-mile zone actually defined in law, but there are cases where more than 100 miles may be acceptable as well. Am I missing something?
      - tptacek 1y ago
        The entire "legal analysis" section of the article, I think? It's hard for me to engage with a single sentence from the opening of the article, when the entire article is about the illegitimacy of CBP's interpretation of that statute. In particular, repeatedly throughout the entire article the author refutes your assertion that searches are authorized by the INA.
        ranger_danger 1y ago
        How about this then... can we agree that CBP searches outside of a posted border crossing within 100 miles of a land border, appears to be a contested and unsettled issue that may be subject to the whims of the judge of each case, but cannot clearly be defined objectively as "a myth" like you put it. Is that sufficient for you?
fooqux 1y ago
looks at map in confusion Since the western side of the state is quite obviously more than 100 miles from Canada I had to look this up. Apparently it's because the lakes count as international borders. That seems pretty crazy to me, especially in the case of Lake Michigan.
- harikb 1y ago
  Forget lakes, it can be interpreted as any airport with an international flight. We are all within "100 miles of a border" even when walking our dog in the morning.
  - RajT88 1y ago
    I am sure they claim this from time to time, but don't do so in writing. Lake Michigan is considered a "coast" (which Chicagoans kind of like! See: "Third coast" stuff), but that bizarrely puts their jurisdiction ~70 miles into the Illinois cornfields based on them saying they treat the lake as a "coast".
    - thaumasiotes 1y ago
      The lakeshore is a coast. For border control purposes, it's a large body of water that borders the US and other countries. (Granted, there's a fairly tight bottleneck coming from Lake Huron.) There's no argument for not treating it as an oceanic border. 100 miles from the seashore also puts you into some clearly inland areas. Most locations 100 miles from the sea aren't organized around their "proximity" to the ocean.
      - RajT88 1y ago
        I mean - the argument for not treating the whole thing as an oceanic border is the fact that the territorial line of US and Canada Lakes Superior, Huron, Erie and Ontario - but not at all Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan does not touch Canada. There are shipping ports along the shores of Lake Michigan, but it's an argument that it should not be treated as an oceanic border. No matter how you measure it, Chicago is hundreds of miles from the Canadian border.
gbin 1y ago
The current government refuses entry for political opinions by forcing people to give away their phone passwords. It is like a political test purge on a small scale showing what will happen to the country the minute they can free themselves from this pesky constitution.
- majorchord 1y ago
  > forcing people Not sure what your definition of forcing is, but you are well within your rights to decline to provide any passwords in the US. You may not get the device back (or want it back), but in theory nothing should happen to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_Stat...

tptacek 1y ago

The 100-mile border zone thing is a myth ACLU uses to fundraise. There have been SCOTUS cases knocking the idea down. There has to be some nexus to an actual border crossing for "border zone" rules to apply. About the most it seems the government can sustainably do is set up fixed checkpoints, and even those are legally problematic. This comes up on HN several times a year; there are longer discussions about it available in the search bar.

ranger_danger 1y ago
How is it a myth? https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/13/what-is-usa-border-enforcement-zone/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/06/13/what-is-usa-border-en... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception https://www.pennstatelawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/3-Anthony-100-Mile-Zone.pdf https://www.pennstatelawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/0... https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=sjlcr https://scholarlycommons.law.case.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?ar... https://www.truthorfiction.com/supreme-court-100-miles-border-ruling/ https://www.truthorfiction.com/supreme-court-100-miles-borde... https://brownpoliticalreview.org/constitution-100-miles-questionable-nature-u-s-interior-checkpoints/ https://brownpoliticalreview.org/constitution-100-miles-ques... https://ballsandstrikes.org/legal-culture/border-patrol-100-mile-zone-explainer/ https://ballsandstrikes.org/legal-culture/border-patrol-100-...
- tptacek 1y ago
  Read the Penn State Law Review article you just pasted. Nobody's questioning whether CBP itself acts abusively within the US. As the law review article observes, CBP's abuses have little to do with the "100 mile" thing; they detained Sen. Patrick Leahy by the side of the road more than 100 miles way from any nominal border. The article goes into great detail about what the courts have authorized; it's nothing like ACLU's claim. This is one area in which I think ACLU's advocacy is actively harmful: they're convincing people that the USG has statutory authorization to do things, things they actually do, for which they in fact have no authorization.
  - ranger_danger 1y ago
    I did, and: > Originating in a decades-old federal statute, CBP has the authority to conduct stops and searches within a “reasonable distance” of a border, defined by regulation as 100 miles. Does not sound like a myth to me... https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/287.1 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/8/287.1 In fact this seems to say that not only is a 100-mile zone actually defined in law, but there are cases where more than 100 miles may be acceptable as well. Am I missing something?
    - tptacek 1y ago
      The entire "legal analysis" section of the article, I think? It's hard for me to engage with a single sentence from the opening of the article, when the entire article is about the illegitimacy of CBP's interpretation of that statute. In particular, repeatedly throughout the entire article the author refutes your assertion that searches are authorized by the INA.
      - ranger_danger 1y ago
        How about this then... can we agree that CBP searches outside of a posted border crossing within 100 miles of a land border, appears to be a contested and unsettled issue that may be subject to the whims of the judge of each case, but cannot clearly be defined objectively as "a myth" like you put it. Is that sufficient for you?

fooqux 1y ago

looks at map in confusion Since the western side of the state is quite obviously more than 100 miles from Canada I had to look this up. Apparently it's because the lakes count as international borders. That seems pretty crazy to me, especially in the case of Lake Michigan.

harikb 1y ago
Forget lakes, it can be interpreted as any airport with an international flight. We are all within "100 miles of a border" even when walking our dog in the morning.
- RajT88 1y ago
  I am sure they claim this from time to time, but don't do so in writing. Lake Michigan is considered a "coast" (which Chicagoans kind of like! See: "Third coast" stuff), but that bizarrely puts their jurisdiction ~70 miles into the Illinois cornfields based on them saying they treat the lake as a "coast".
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    The lakeshore is a coast. For border control purposes, it's a large body of water that borders the US and other countries. (Granted, there's a fairly tight bottleneck coming from Lake Huron.) There's no argument for not treating it as an oceanic border. 100 miles from the seashore also puts you into some clearly inland areas. Most locations 100 miles from the sea aren't organized around their "proximity" to the ocean.
    - RajT88 1y ago
      I mean - the argument for not treating the whole thing as an oceanic border is the fact that the territorial line of US and Canada Lakes Superior, Huron, Erie and Ontario - but not at all Lake Michigan. Lake Michigan does not touch Canada. There are shipping ports along the shores of Lake Michigan, but it's an argument that it should not be treated as an oceanic border. No matter how you measure it, Chicago is hundreds of miles from the Canadian border.

gbin 1y ago

The current government refuses entry for political opinions by forcing people to give away their phone passwords. It is like a political test purge on a small scale showing what will happen to the country the minute they can free themselves from this pesky constitution.

majorchord 1y ago
> forcing people Not sure what your definition of forcing is, but you are well within your rights to decline to provide any passwords in the US. You may not get the device back (or want it back), but in theory nothing should happen to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_disclosure_law#United_Stat...