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I'm not sure what you consider "sufficiently concentrated" but some existing viruses (which form spores) can already survive a 1% sodium hypochlorite solution c

I'm not sure what you consider "sufficiently concentrated" but some existing viruses (which form spores) can already survive a 1% sodium hypochlorite solution cleaning, which is pretty crazy-high. At that point you're risking damage to surfaces/skin. Doesn't seem impossible it could go higher if bleach exposure was consistently selected for.

glenstein 1y ago
Surviving in 1% bleach doesn't demonstrate the supremacy of evolution over physical constraints, and it's important to keep the eye on the ball of what this whole point was about. There are circumstances such as the temperature of the Sun, where DNA, or any molecular structure, or even atoms, can't hold together, and so there's no evolutionary pathways that can iterate toward survival. You can't have molecular biology without molecules. It's an extreme example, but it demonstrates a fundamental constraint that can't be evolved around. Ideally vaccines can find an equivalent in the space of mechanistic interactions that cut off any evolutionary pathway a virus could reach, either exterminating the virus before it has enough time to complete the search, or by genuinely leaving no pathway even with infinite searching. Contrary to what you may have heard from Jeff Goldblum life does not always find a way.
- capitainenemo 1y ago
  Yeah, wasn't disagreeing with fundamental premise, just picking on the bleach bit.
  - MengerSponge 1y ago
    My sentence construction was a little ornate but the antecedent was "bacteria", not "viruses and bacteria and anything else you can imagine"
    - capitainenemo 1y ago
      Well you're in luck because I said virus (accidentally) but I really meant "bacteria" - I don't think viruses can form spores, but who knows what we'll find. There are a lot of hijackings of cellular machinery that happen, and maybe we'll find one that uses a bacterial spore as a stealth capsule. There are indeed bacteria which can survive high bleach concentrations. It was a minor nitpick.
      - MengerSponge 1y ago
        I wound up reading about some particularly resilient strains of c diff and wow, that's spooky stuff. But I bet if you weren't worried about etching or skin safety you could find a concentration that would handle those little buggers. It's the sterilization equivalent of "It can't be stuck if it's liquid"

glenstein 1y ago

Surviving in 1% bleach doesn't demonstrate the supremacy of evolution over physical constraints, and it's important to keep the eye on the ball of what this whole point was about. There are circumstances such as the temperature of the Sun, where DNA, or any molecular structure, or even atoms, can't hold together, and so there's no evolutionary pathways that can iterate toward survival. You can't have molecular biology without molecules. It's an extreme example, but it demonstrates a fundamental constraint that can't be evolved around. Ideally vaccines can find an equivalent in the space of mechanistic interactions that cut off any evolutionary pathway a virus could reach, either exterminating the virus before it has enough time to complete the search, or by genuinely leaving no pathway even with infinite searching. Contrary to what you may have heard from Jeff Goldblum life does not always find a way.

capitainenemo 1y ago
Yeah, wasn't disagreeing with fundamental premise, just picking on the bleach bit.
- MengerSponge 1y ago
  My sentence construction was a little ornate but the antecedent was "bacteria", not "viruses and bacteria and anything else you can imagine"
  - capitainenemo 1y ago
    Well you're in luck because I said virus (accidentally) but I really meant "bacteria" - I don't think viruses can form spores, but who knows what we'll find. There are a lot of hijackings of cellular machinery that happen, and maybe we'll find one that uses a bacterial spore as a stealth capsule. There are indeed bacteria which can survive high bleach concentrations. It was a minor nitpick.
    - MengerSponge 1y ago
      I wound up reading about some particularly resilient strains of c diff and wow, that's spooky stuff. But I bet if you weren't worried about etching or skin safety you could find a concentration that would handle those little buggers. It's the sterilization equivalent of "It can't be stuck if it's liquid"