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The idea of Framework laptops sounds great! But I’m wondering: has anyone done an economic analysis comparing buying a Framework laptop a few years ago and grad

The idea of Framework laptops sounds great! But I’m wondering: has anyone done an economic analysis comparing buying a Framework laptop a few years ago and gradually upgrading it, versus buying a similar popular brand laptop and just upgrading by getting a new model? I’m not trolling, I’m genuinely considering Framework as my next laptop.

moelf 1y ago
I think a large economic value also comes from repair-ability. If nothing ever breaks (until battery dies), I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.
- bee_rider 1y ago
  Apple is impossible to compare against in the sense that MacOS is a giant question-mark, with an unknown positive or negative value, depending on the user. I guess we could do an apples-to-apples comparison (Linux or Windows performance on Macs that have it). Not sure how that works out, though.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  I’ve had to get a couple MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros repaired by Apple when we took over an office that didn’t have IT staff. It was surprisingly not as expensive as I thought it would be. There are also 3rd party options that will swap in parts for you or try to repair things. It’s not as satisfying as ordering the parts and changing it out yourself but at this point I don’t prioritize repairs or failures in my buying decisions any more.
- nickjj 1y ago
  > I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price. It depends on what you want. About a week ago I got a new 15" laptop with a Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads) | Radeon 680M | 32 GB of RAM | 1 TB SSD | 1080p IPS panel for $570 USD. That 680m is an integrated GPU that can use up to 8 GB of your system RAM for its VRAM. I put Arch Linux on it and it's quite nice. Things are very snappy. A Macbook Air is almost 4x the price with the same memory / storage or 2x if you're ok with 16 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD. No doubt the Air is going to be lighter, have better battery life and be quieter but this other one isn't too bad. Sure it has fans and sure it weighs 4.5 pounds but it's not a deal breaker.
miloignis 1y ago
Another consideration that has really come true for me is repairs - I accidentally spilled a bottle of gin over my framework and was able to only replace the main board for under half the cost of a brand new machine. I'm very happy with my framework!
- neilv 1y ago
  The bottle of gin is to drown the sorrows of not having a TrackPoint keyboard?
- Deuter8 1y ago
  We can admire Framework's commitment to repairable hardware without pretending that it's unique. I spilled my drink of choice on my Alienware X17 and was able to replace the keyboard for $100 from AliExpress armed only with a Phillips head.
  - kibwen 1y ago
    Replacing the mainboard is not quite the same thing as replacing the keyboard.
  - umbra07 1y ago
    That's close to double the repair cost. No warranty, since Aliexpress. Probably no options for non-US English keyboard replacements. And I would be very surprised if that keyboard replacement was still available for purchase on Aliexpress in 5 years.
  - dangus 1y ago
    Is it an OEM part with the same quality as the original? Will AliExpress carry the part 5 years from now? (Framework systems are backward/forward compatible). If you spilled your drink on your Framework keyboard from your 13" system that you bought 5 years ago and you bought a replacement from Framework, you'd be getting a better and improved model of the keyboard. Same deal with issues like cracked screens, webcams, and batteries - since the original Framework came out, the company has upgraded those parts, and makes them available to people who bought the original system. AliExpress 3rd party battery replacements are basically never as good as OEM. That level of support is is unique and you are trying to downplay it as something that other OEM offers, and I think that's a little bit facetious.
simpaticoder 1y ago
I have a 1st gen Framework 13, Intel 11th gen CPU, running Ubuntu 24. It had a faulty design around the BIOS battery on the motherboard that I had to fix, and do some soldering on[1]. It's remarkable because they didn't say "Send the laptop in and we'll fix the design defect" they said, "First take a photo of the inside of the laptop to verify the serial number, then place an order, then do the repair yourself." This left a very bad taste in my mouth. Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend. I have taken to leaving it plugged in when not in use. This may be a Linux issue, but still. I agree with you: the idea is a good one, but my experience with the company has been not good. 1 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+11th+Gen+Intel%C2%AE+Core%E2%84%A2/203 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
- deleted 1y ago
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- kibwen 1y ago
  > then do the repair yourself This is awesome though, and exactly the sort of thing one buys a Framework for. > the laptop's battery life is not good Mine is great, I share a single USB-C cord among all my laptops (of which I have despairingly too many) and I often use my Framework all day while forgetting it's not plugged in. (Fedora, if the OS matters.)
  - bevr1337 1y ago
    I'm going to assume soldering on the main board is far outside the ability of most users. They're not through hole, big green boards like I learned on. It is certainly awesome for those that can, of course!
    - simpaticoder 1y ago
      It does not make sense to praise a company for selling defective products because some of the customers have the ability to repair the defect.
deleted 1y ago
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benjiro 1y ago
The problem your overlooking is not just the upgrade vs new cost, but also the parts issue. Buying a brand new Framework tend to be more expensive then a ~ Chinese Laptop. *New vs Upgrade* In general, you can sell a second hand laptop at around 50% of the original price, about 2 years down the line (assuming you did not damage it). So a new upgrade will be 50% cheaper. For that you tend to get (depending on the generation jump), more storage, more memory, potential better screen, faster CPU. While a Framework upgrade may mean you gain a new Motherbord+CPU for the price of that equivalent laptop. But here you run into another economic issue. Sure, you can transplant your 2100mhz memory but what if 2660 is the standard. So you CPU upgrade is going to get throttled. *Changes* What if memory changed with a inner generational. So now that memory you had before is useless. You can recover some value, but are still forced to buy the generation memory. That wifi card, 5e ... great, but now your getting maybe 6 standard in a new laptop. Also do not forget, your laptop will have more wear and tear vs a new device. Keyboard may become a issue. Your oled screen may have reduced coloring after 1 or 2 generation of usage (oleds suffer from high screen brightness, and laptop are more often in locations like outdoors that run at 100% brightness). *Compatibility* What about compatibility? Maybe you had a Intel based Framework laptop, with a intel wifi card. The problem is, some intel wifi cards need specific intel instructions onboard the CPU. So now you upgraded to AMD but your wifi card becomes useless. Yes, a new laptop is rolling the dice regarding defects or other issues. But so is upgrading a framework. The problem is, your getting all the not so fun parts of a desktop's upgradability, without the cost saving potential of a desktop. *Resell issue* Selling your framework memory, wifi card etc will not be a big issue. But the moment you want to sell a older part, now what? Great that you upgraded from 1080p screen to 4k by yourself, but who is going to buy your 1080p screen? Your at best looking at a small market of framework owners, and a even smaller market of framework owners that need a new screen (maybe to replace a damaged one). What about the bezel changes? What about the keyboard? What is your buyers market. Sure, maybe you can sell your old MB/CPU but even that is a VERY specialized market of people, who maybe need one to repair their framework, or want a custom nas (cheaper to just buy a mini-pc from the dozens of Chinese brands) or the few people who run a very old framework mb, and upgrade (what about their selling 2+ generation old MB/CPU combo). *Buyers* Framework really is for people who do not like to change laptops / get used to new ones, and who have no issue taking in the extra costs of those upgrade potential. But then again, i see people running macbooks M1's still (darm good laptops), for 5 years. They did not need the upgrade path. It really depends on you, what you really value. But from a economic point of view, your not going to be cheaper in the long run with a framework, and that is not the selling point also.
mortsnort 1y ago
Similarly spec'd laptops can be found for ~1/2 the price. I don't think a deep economic analysis is necessary...
toastercat 1y ago
I was really close to getting a Framework earlier this year, but ultimately landed on a Thinkpad T14 Gen 5 because at the time, the price gap was significant (the Thinkpad was $250 cheaper) and the T14 still had a better CPU. Not to mention the T14 has expandable RAM, replaceable battery, screen, and keyboard, and is acceptably thin and light. In the end, I think the Framework is worth it if you have a desire to support the company and the mission, but I think most people should go refurbished if they only care about value.
extraisland 1y ago
It depends what you are looking for. If you care about overall price you don't buy brand new. I want something that can run an Linux, IDE and some tooling that I can stick in my bag and not care too much about it so I buy refurbs. Often there isn't much wrong with them other than minor cosmetic damage. I always go for Dell Business or Lenovo Thinkpads. There are plenty of spare parts available online. They typically work well with Linux & BSDs. I can get a laptop that was a flag ship a few years ago for like 1/3rd the price and often it is more than good enough.

moelf 1y ago

I think a large economic value also comes from repair-ability. If nothing ever breaks (until battery dies), I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price.

bee_rider 1y ago
Apple is impossible to compare against in the sense that MacOS is a giant question-mark, with an unknown positive or negative value, depending on the user. I guess we could do an apples-to-apples comparison (Linux or Windows performance on Macs that have it). Not sure how that works out, though.
Aurornis 1y ago
I’ve had to get a couple MacBook Airs and MacBook Pros repaired by Apple when we took over an office that didn’t have IT staff. It was surprisingly not as expensive as I thought it would be. There are also 3rd party options that will swap in parts for you or try to repair things. It’s not as satisfying as ordering the parts and changing it out yourself but at this point I don’t prioritize repairs or failures in my buying decisions any more.
nickjj 1y ago
> I don't think anyone can compete with entry level MacBook in terms of experience/price. It depends on what you want. About a week ago I got a new 15" laptop with a Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads) | Radeon 680M | 32 GB of RAM | 1 TB SSD | 1080p IPS panel for $570 USD. That 680m is an integrated GPU that can use up to 8 GB of your system RAM for its VRAM. I put Arch Linux on it and it's quite nice. Things are very snappy. A Macbook Air is almost 4x the price with the same memory / storage or 2x if you're ok with 16 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD. No doubt the Air is going to be lighter, have better battery life and be quieter but this other one isn't too bad. Sure it has fans and sure it weighs 4.5 pounds but it's not a deal breaker.

miloignis 1y ago

Another consideration that has really come true for me is repairs - I accidentally spilled a bottle of gin over my framework and was able to only replace the main board for under half the cost of a brand new machine. I'm very happy with my framework!

neilv 1y ago
The bottle of gin is to drown the sorrows of not having a TrackPoint keyboard?
Deuter8 1y ago
We can admire Framework's commitment to repairable hardware without pretending that it's unique. I spilled my drink of choice on my Alienware X17 and was able to replace the keyboard for $100 from AliExpress armed only with a Phillips head.
- kibwen 1y ago
  Replacing the mainboard is not quite the same thing as replacing the keyboard.
- umbra07 1y ago
  That's close to double the repair cost. No warranty, since Aliexpress. Probably no options for non-US English keyboard replacements. And I would be very surprised if that keyboard replacement was still available for purchase on Aliexpress in 5 years.
- dangus 1y ago
  Is it an OEM part with the same quality as the original? Will AliExpress carry the part 5 years from now? (Framework systems are backward/forward compatible). If you spilled your drink on your Framework keyboard from your 13" system that you bought 5 years ago and you bought a replacement from Framework, you'd be getting a better and improved model of the keyboard. Same deal with issues like cracked screens, webcams, and batteries - since the original Framework came out, the company has upgraded those parts, and makes them available to people who bought the original system. AliExpress 3rd party battery replacements are basically never as good as OEM. That level of support is is unique and you are trying to downplay it as something that other OEM offers, and I think that's a little bit facetious.

simpaticoder 1y ago

I have a 1st gen Framework 13, Intel 11th gen CPU, running Ubuntu 24. It had a faulty design around the BIOS battery on the motherboard that I had to fix, and do some soldering on[1]. It's remarkable because they didn't say "Send the laptop in and we'll fix the design defect" they said, "First take a photo of the inside of the laptop to verify the serial number, then place an order, then do the repair yourself." This left a very bad taste in my mouth. Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend. I have taken to leaving it plugged in when not in use. This may be a Linux issue, but still. I agree with you: the idea is a good one, but my experience with the company has been not good. 1 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+11th+Gen+Intel%C2%AE+Core%E2%84%A2/203 https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
kibwen 1y ago
> then do the repair yourself This is awesome though, and exactly the sort of thing one buys a Framework for. > the laptop's battery life is not good Mine is great, I share a single USB-C cord among all my laptops (of which I have despairingly too many) and I often use my Framework all day while forgetting it's not plugged in. (Fedora, if the OS matters.)
- bevr1337 1y ago
  I'm going to assume soldering on the main board is far outside the ability of most users. They're not through hole, big green boards like I learned on. It is certainly awesome for those that can, of course!
  - simpaticoder 1y ago
    It does not make sense to praise a company for selling defective products because some of the customers have the ability to repair the defect.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

benjiro 1y ago

The problem your overlooking is not just the upgrade vs new cost, but also the parts issue. Buying a brand new Framework tend to be more expensive then a ~ Chinese Laptop. *New vs Upgrade* In general, you can sell a second hand laptop at around 50% of the original price, about 2 years down the line (assuming you did not damage it). So a new upgrade will be 50% cheaper. For that you tend to get (depending on the generation jump), more storage, more memory, potential better screen, faster CPU. While a Framework upgrade may mean you gain a new Motherbord+CPU for the price of that equivalent laptop. But here you run into another economic issue. Sure, you can transplant your 2100mhz memory but what if 2660 is the standard. So you CPU upgrade is going to get throttled. *Changes* What if memory changed with a inner generational. So now that memory you had before is useless. You can recover some value, but are still forced to buy the generation memory. That wifi card, 5e ... great, but now your getting maybe 6 standard in a new laptop. Also do not forget, your laptop will have more wear and tear vs a new device. Keyboard may become a issue. Your oled screen may have reduced coloring after 1 or 2 generation of usage (oleds suffer from high screen brightness, and laptop are more often in locations like outdoors that run at 100% brightness). *Compatibility* What about compatibility? Maybe you had a Intel based Framework laptop, with a intel wifi card. The problem is, some intel wifi cards need specific intel instructions onboard the CPU. So now you upgraded to AMD but your wifi card becomes useless. Yes, a new laptop is rolling the dice regarding defects or other issues. But so is upgrading a framework. The problem is, your getting all the not so fun parts of a desktop's upgradability, without the cost saving potential of a desktop. *Resell issue* Selling your framework memory, wifi card etc will not be a big issue. But the moment you want to sell a older part, now what? Great that you upgraded from 1080p screen to 4k by yourself, but who is going to buy your 1080p screen? Your at best looking at a small market of framework owners, and a even smaller market of framework owners that need a new screen (maybe to replace a damaged one). What about the bezel changes? What about the keyboard? What is your buyers market. Sure, maybe you can sell your old MB/CPU but even that is a VERY specialized market of people, who maybe need one to repair their framework, or want a custom nas (cheaper to just buy a mini-pc from the dozens of Chinese brands) or the few people who run a very old framework mb, and upgrade (what about their selling 2+ generation old MB/CPU combo). *Buyers* Framework really is for people who do not like to change laptops / get used to new ones, and who have no issue taking in the extra costs of those upgrade potential. But then again, i see people running macbooks M1's still (darm good laptops), for 5 years. They did not need the upgrade path. It really depends on you, what you really value. But from a economic point of view, your not going to be cheaper in the long run with a framework, and that is not the selling point also.

mortsnort 1y ago

Similarly spec'd laptops can be found for ~1/2 the price. I don't think a deep economic analysis is necessary...

toastercat 1y ago

I was really close to getting a Framework earlier this year, but ultimately landed on a Thinkpad T14 Gen 5 because at the time, the price gap was significant (the Thinkpad was $250 cheaper) and the T14 still had a better CPU. Not to mention the T14 has expandable RAM, replaceable battery, screen, and keyboard, and is acceptably thin and light. In the end, I think the Framework is worth it if you have a desire to support the company and the mission, but I think most people should go refurbished if they only care about value.

extraisland 1y ago

It depends what you are looking for. If you care about overall price you don't buy brand new. I want something that can run an Linux, IDE and some tooling that I can stick in my bag and not care too much about it so I buy refurbs. Often there isn't much wrong with them other than minor cosmetic damage. I always go for Dell Business or Lenovo Thinkpads. There are plenty of spare parts available online. They typically work well with Linux & BSDs. I can get a laptop that was a flag ship a few years ago for like 1/3rd the price and often it is more than good enough.