7 ms·

And you think that Russia is a better option? I hope the EU isn't that dumb, but it's hard to underestimate them.

by terminalshort 1y ago

ivan_gammel 1y ago
It is not a better option. It’s the way to have competition among suppliers.
- marcinzm 1y ago
  If you think Putin and Trump will compete versus simply colluding against Europe then you're really delusional.
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    I see US made weapons destroying Russian assets in Ukraine every day. I see US troops facing off against Russia in Poland and the Baltics. This is a nonsense conspiracy theory.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  One of those suppliers demanding you don't tax and censor their online services. The other is pointing weapons (that they buy with your money) at you. There is a time for market competition, but this ain't it. Now if you were suggesting developing domestic energy supplies, that would be a different story.
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    Please don’t expect me writing a full political program here elaborating all aspects of foreign and energy policy. It’s a forum. Domestic energy supplies won’t come faster than imports from existing sources. They are imperative but need time.
spwa4 1y ago
You don't understand. The situation in Europe is: the left has failed, and broken into pieces that are currently mostly still in a few parties, but those are ready to shatter into 100, at which point ... the extreme right has 35% of the vote, and the center parties has all but broken down. That means the moderate right (think laissez-faire pro-immigration pro-business, the only remaining other voting bloc) and extreme right (hate based parties) control, easily, 50% of the vote. They are not currently allied but the problem is that a shattered left is not something the right (or anyone) can work with. If the left fully shatters, the right will be forced to join the extreme right. So right now, it takes essentially EVERY small insignificant party cooperating not to hand EU countries to the extreme right (yes, in Germany there's more margin, in the Netherlands less, France is on the brink, ...) That makes your "dumb" not dumb but a serious catch-22. Any compromise that makes ANY party that has 5% of the vote walk out is a total non-starter, because one vote of non-confidence and "hitler gets elected again" so to speak.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  My "dumb" is what got you into this situation. I notice you left Denmark off that list. Wonder what's different there? Perhaps if your center-left / center-right parties realized, like anyone with a brain did well over a decade ago, that mass third world Muslim immigration into Europe is the stupidest political idea of the 21st century so far, you wouldn't be in this position. Perhaps if you realized your political foot gun is the real threat here, and not your own citizens who oppose it, you wouldn't be worrying about a "hitler gets elected again" scenario.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    You're right, I guess, but ... Mass immigration is the only thing currently saving Europe from demographic collapse in the working age population. It is the only thing keeping pension systems afloat for the moment. It is faltering, the working age population will still collapse (and immigration is not saving anything but the huge cities. In the south of Europe entire regions are essentially depopulated and those regions are growing despite mass immigration) Yet another problem where there is no choice. Or there is a choice between "collapse now" and "collapse in 10 years". We're seeing a repeating theme here. And no worries: the EU governments are going to use spending cutbacks to get themselves out of this situation. Which again is the stupidest thing imaginable, because I can't even imageine a way to make that work ... but here we are.

And you think that Russia is a better option? I hope the EU isn't that dumb, but it's hard to underestimate them.

ivan_gammel 1y ago

It is not a better option. It’s the way to have competition among suppliers.

marcinzm 1y ago
If you think Putin and Trump will compete versus simply colluding against Europe then you're really delusional.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  I see US made weapons destroying Russian assets in Ukraine every day. I see US troops facing off against Russia in Poland and the Baltics. This is a nonsense conspiracy theory.
terminalshort 1y ago
One of those suppliers demanding you don't tax and censor their online services. The other is pointing weapons (that they buy with your money) at you. There is a time for market competition, but this ain't it. Now if you were suggesting developing domestic energy supplies, that would be a different story.
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  Please don’t expect me writing a full political program here elaborating all aspects of foreign and energy policy. It’s a forum. Domestic energy supplies won’t come faster than imports from existing sources. They are imperative but need time.

spwa4 1y ago

You don't understand. The situation in Europe is: the left has failed, and broken into pieces that are currently mostly still in a few parties, but those are ready to shatter into 100, at which point ... the extreme right has 35% of the vote, and the center parties has all but broken down. That means the moderate right (think laissez-faire pro-immigration pro-business, the only remaining other voting bloc) and extreme right (hate based parties) control, easily, 50% of the vote. They are not currently allied but the problem is that a shattered left is not something the right (or anyone) can work with. If the left fully shatters, the right will be forced to join the extreme right. So right now, it takes essentially EVERY small insignificant party cooperating not to hand EU countries to the extreme right (yes, in Germany there's more margin, in the Netherlands less, France is on the brink, ...) That makes your "dumb" not dumb but a serious catch-22. Any compromise that makes ANY party that has 5% of the vote walk out is a total non-starter, because one vote of non-confidence and "hitler gets elected again" so to speak.

terminalshort 1y ago
My "dumb" is what got you into this situation. I notice you left Denmark off that list. Wonder what's different there? Perhaps if your center-left / center-right parties realized, like anyone with a brain did well over a decade ago, that mass third world Muslim immigration into Europe is the stupidest political idea of the 21st century so far, you wouldn't be in this position. Perhaps if you realized your political foot gun is the real threat here, and not your own citizens who oppose it, you wouldn't be worrying about a "hitler gets elected again" scenario.
- spwa4 1y ago
  You're right, I guess, but ... Mass immigration is the only thing currently saving Europe from demographic collapse in the working age population. It is the only thing keeping pension systems afloat for the moment. It is faltering, the working age population will still collapse (and immigration is not saving anything but the huge cities. In the south of Europe entire regions are essentially depopulated and those regions are growing despite mass immigration) Yet another problem where there is no choice. Or there is a choice between "collapse now" and "collapse in 10 years". We're seeing a repeating theme here. And no worries: the EU governments are going to use spending cutbacks to get themselves out of this situation. Which again is the stupidest thing imaginable, because I can't even imageine a way to make that work ... but here we are.