5 ms·

That's not even dangerously close to blaming the victim; that is blaming the victim.

corin_ 14y ago
At what point is it OK to blame the victim? Blame on the victim doesn't have to mean the attacker(s) are blameless, or that they aren't complete assholes. She attempted to provoke a reaction out of a group of strangers some of whom are known for reacting this way, surely there's no way of looking at this without thinking her somewhat naive/idiotic?
nathanb 14y ago
You are conflating two independent ideas: was it wise to behave as she did, and was 4chan's response OK. The answer to both is "no". It was unwise for her to do what she did, but that does not justify the response. Don't accuse people of blaming the victim for pointing out her unwise behavior. If I go for a walk in a minefield, it sucks that my leg got blown off...but I could have perhaps exercised better judgment regarding the location of my evening constitutional. That doesn't make it OK to deploy land mines, that just makes me an idiot for walking into the minefield.
- wam 14y ago
  Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. Women don't get slut-shamed because they did something to deserve it, they get slut-shamed because they live in a culture where our first reaction to anything having to do with women and harassment is to look for a reason why she had it coming. Someone doesn't have to say "I blame the victim" to blame the victim. Usually what they say is something along the lines of "I'm not blaming her, but..."
  - awj 14y ago
    ...how again is someone who (according to the article) has been part of 4chan for some time fundamentally incapable of poking that particular bear? I understand and agree with your logic (at least so far as "judging people for their participation in unavoidable situations is wrong" summarizes it), but I don't think it applies here.
  - commandar 14y ago
    In this case, I think it's kind of a stretch to suggest the victim doesn't hold some level of culpability. She wasn't randomly targeted just for going about her business; she was targeted because she repeatedly posted calling /b/ "fags," "jits," "[/b] ain't shit," etc. Suggesting that she doesn't have any responsibility for what happened doesn't make any more sense to me than condoning how /b/ responded.
  - mcantelon 14y ago
    >Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. Lord knows it ain't easy being a slutty amputee.
    - marshray 14y ago
      But wouldn't it be awesome if one showed up and made an insightful contribution to the conversation? If I were a woman who had lost a limb in combat and had had a higher than average number of boyfriends, I think I would probably feel quite insulted that people were assuming I was unable to reason logically about the OP's premise.
      - huggah 14y ago
        In this case, wasn't the poster assuming that you (the slut-shamed landmine victim) were unable to avoid reasoning correctly? Without taking sides here, it seems as if the poster was saying "you're wrong about X, therefore you couldn't be part of group Y that would know about X".
        14y ago
Ensorceled 14y ago
Blaming the victim involves some variation of: "the stupid bitch deserved it" I don't think she deserves any of this, just observing that it's a predictable outcome and she was stupid not to foresee.
jamesaguilar 14y ago
I dunno, it seems like the most changeable cause of her distress is her choice to taunt a bunch of known . . . bad elements of internet society. That doesn't make it good that this happened to her, but it's also a true observation.
macchina 14y ago
In this instance, I do blame the victim for creating this situation (assuming she wasn't set up). She taunted /b/. (If you read her sign, it says "you will never reveal my true identity.") This is not a case of a person going about their own business and being arbitrarily targeted. Of course, I don't condone what 4channers did, but she asked for it by taunting a well-known group of trolls.
kstenerud 14y ago
So if I were to walk up to the huge guy with tree trunks for arms who is notoriously ill-tempered and violent, and then proceed to call him names, would I be a blameless victim who had his teeth knocked out for no good reason?
mikeash 14y ago
Sometimes, a victim deserves blame. If you run through the bad part of town shouting racial slurs at the inhabitants and calling them cowards, you can certainly be blamed for provoking what likely happens afterwards. Note that blame is not a zero-sum game. Blaming the victim does not diminish the blame assigned to the attackers, nor does it in any way justify what they do.
kmm 14y ago
Please, take that feminist rapeculture nonsense out of here. Nobody is holding her responsible for all she's going through and nobody is the blame but the anonymous people on /b/. But she really should have known better. It's interesting how quick people jump on shaming the victim blamers when it's a women being harassed but nobody is there to reassure me it is not my fault when I stick my hand in boiling water. You people seem to not be able to make the distinction between deserving something unpleasant and getting what's coming to them. She absolutely didn't deserve what happened to her but she did provoke it.
- roguecoder 14y ago
  Boiling water holds no culpability. Soldiers shouldn't get blamed for being shot, drag queen's aren't asking for harassment, police officers shouldn't be blamed for getting killed in the line of duty. Victim blaming puts the onus on someone who didn't make the decision to act in the entirely inappropriate manner. We can even condemn behavior without justifying or excusing extra-judicial violence. We just have to do it not in the context of discussing the violence they later suffered. We can discuss the injustice of an invasion, but the funeral of a fallen soldier isn't the place for it.
  - kmm 14y ago
    This is different from drag queens. Drag queens can reasonably expect to be able to prance around (I'm sorry, I can't find a more respectful term) in women's clothes. Women can reasonably expect and have to full freedom to dress however they want. I have a lot less sympathy for the action of harassing /b/ for the intent purpose of driving more visitors to your site. That's not to say the punishment is a billion times harsher than the "crime" warrants, I just believe there's a difference between walking around in certain clothes and lying to a group of people, no matter how depraved these people are. In the same way, although I believe I should be able to shouts slurs at people without being beaten up, I think I'd earn less sympathy than if I were beaten up because of my sexual orientation. Also, no one is really blaming, I'm actually just curious. Anyone who knows /b/, knows what they're capable of, especially if you give them your name and what you look like. In 99% of the cases, it just fizzles out, but was she really betting on not being the 1%?
lwat 14y ago
If someone pokes an alligator and gets into trouble, is that blaming the victim?
theorique 14y ago
It absolutely is blaming the victim. But what are we supposed to do when the victim bears some responsibility (obviously not all) for the process of their victimization? Most people have some concept of a moral ladder ranging from "totally innocent bystander" to "criminal who deserved what they got". For example: a person who dies while standing on a NYC sidewalk and gets hit by a falling air conditioner is essentially blameless; a person who dies by being shot by a police officer while robbing a store at gunpoint earned their just reward. Most situations, including this one, are less clear cut. She's not 0% responsible. She's not 100% responsible. But the correct number is somewhere in between. 5%? 10%? 20%? I don't know, and since I'm not presiding over a courtroom where she's suing 4chan, it's not my business to decide either. In any case, to suggest that a person who freely chooses to venture into one of the seediest holes on the Internet, and then actively taunts and trolls the inhabitants (who are known to be vengeful, technically capable, and gifted with a lot of free time and tenacity) is absolutely and completely free from responsibility? ... Well, I'm not sure how to answer that. Did /b/ overreact like a bunch of immature, possibly criminal, jerks? Of course they did. They played their part perfectly, living up to their terrible reputation. And if any of them have broken the law, then it's right that law enforcement get involved and the responsible parties be punished. Does this young woman deserve this? Of course not. But to ask the question, "what the hell was she thinking?", and to judge her partly responsible for the situation, is perfectly legitimate. She didn't deserve what happened, but she's not completely from responsibility for the outcome either.

At what point is it OK to blame the victim? Blame on the victim doesn't have to mean the attacker(s) are blameless, or that they aren't complete assholes. She attempted to provoke a reaction out of a group of strangers some of whom are known for reacting this way, surely there's no way of looking at this without thinking her somewhat naive/idiotic?

nathanb 14y ago

You are conflating two independent ideas: was it wise to behave as she did, and was 4chan's response OK. The answer to both is "no". It was unwise for her to do what she did, but that does not justify the response. Don't accuse people of blaming the victim for pointing out her unwise behavior. If I go for a walk in a minefield, it sucks that my leg got blown off...but I could have perhaps exercised better judgment regarding the location of my evening constitutional. That doesn't make it OK to deploy land mines, that just makes me an idiot for walking into the minefield.

wam 14y ago
Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. People don't actually get maimed because they stupidly walked into a minefield. They get maimed because someone put a minefield where they live and grew up, and they can't live life at all without being in constant danger. Women don't get slut-shamed because they did something to deserve it, they get slut-shamed because they live in a culture where our first reaction to anything having to do with women and harassment is to look for a reason why she had it coming. Someone doesn't have to say "I blame the victim" to blame the victim. Usually what they say is something along the lines of "I'm not blaming her, but..."
- awj 14y ago
  ...how again is someone who (according to the article) has been part of 4chan for some time fundamentally incapable of poking that particular bear? I understand and agree with your logic (at least so far as "judging people for their participation in unavoidable situations is wrong" summarizes it), but I don't think it applies here.
- commandar 14y ago
  In this case, I think it's kind of a stretch to suggest the victim doesn't hold some level of culpability. She wasn't randomly targeted just for going about her business; she was targeted because she repeatedly posted calling /b/ "fags," "jits," "[/b] ain't shit," etc. Suggesting that she doesn't have any responsibility for what happened doesn't make any more sense to me than condoning how /b/ responded.
- mcantelon 14y ago
  >Spoken like someone who has never been slut-shamed. Or had his/her leg blown off by a landmine. Lord knows it ain't easy being a slutty amputee.
  - marshray 14y ago
    But wouldn't it be awesome if one showed up and made an insightful contribution to the conversation? If I were a woman who had lost a limb in combat and had had a higher than average number of boyfriends, I think I would probably feel quite insulted that people were assuming I was unable to reason logically about the OP's premise.
    - huggah 14y ago
      In this case, wasn't the poster assuming that you (the slut-shamed landmine victim) were unable to avoid reasoning correctly? Without taking sides here, it seems as if the poster was saying "you're wrong about X, therefore you couldn't be part of group Y that would know about X".
      - 14y ago

Ensorceled 14y ago

Blaming the victim involves some variation of: "the stupid bitch deserved it" I don't think she deserves any of this, just observing that it's a predictable outcome and she was stupid not to foresee.

jamesaguilar 14y ago

I dunno, it seems like the most changeable cause of her distress is her choice to taunt a bunch of known . . . bad elements of internet society. That doesn't make it good that this happened to her, but it's also a true observation.

macchina 14y ago

In this instance, I do blame the victim for creating this situation (assuming she wasn't set up). She taunted /b/. (If you read her sign, it says "you will never reveal my true identity.") This is not a case of a person going about their own business and being arbitrarily targeted. Of course, I don't condone what 4channers did, but she asked for it by taunting a well-known group of trolls.

kstenerud 14y ago

So if I were to walk up to the huge guy with tree trunks for arms who is notoriously ill-tempered and violent, and then proceed to call him names, would I be a blameless victim who had his teeth knocked out for no good reason?

mikeash 14y ago

Sometimes, a victim deserves blame. If you run through the bad part of town shouting racial slurs at the inhabitants and calling them cowards, you can certainly be blamed for provoking what likely happens afterwards. Note that blame is not a zero-sum game. Blaming the victim does not diminish the blame assigned to the attackers, nor does it in any way justify what they do.

kmm 14y ago

Please, take that feminist rapeculture nonsense out of here. Nobody is holding her responsible for all she's going through and nobody is the blame but the anonymous people on /b/. But she really should have known better. It's interesting how quick people jump on shaming the victim blamers when it's a women being harassed but nobody is there to reassure me it is not my fault when I stick my hand in boiling water. You people seem to not be able to make the distinction between deserving something unpleasant and getting what's coming to them. She absolutely didn't deserve what happened to her but she did provoke it.

roguecoder 14y ago
Boiling water holds no culpability. Soldiers shouldn't get blamed for being shot, drag queen's aren't asking for harassment, police officers shouldn't be blamed for getting killed in the line of duty. Victim blaming puts the onus on someone who didn't make the decision to act in the entirely inappropriate manner. We can even condemn behavior without justifying or excusing extra-judicial violence. We just have to do it not in the context of discussing the violence they later suffered. We can discuss the injustice of an invasion, but the funeral of a fallen soldier isn't the place for it.
- kmm 14y ago
  This is different from drag queens. Drag queens can reasonably expect to be able to prance around (I'm sorry, I can't find a more respectful term) in women's clothes. Women can reasonably expect and have to full freedom to dress however they want. I have a lot less sympathy for the action of harassing /b/ for the intent purpose of driving more visitors to your site. That's not to say the punishment is a billion times harsher than the "crime" warrants, I just believe there's a difference between walking around in certain clothes and lying to a group of people, no matter how depraved these people are. In the same way, although I believe I should be able to shouts slurs at people without being beaten up, I think I'd earn less sympathy than if I were beaten up because of my sexual orientation. Also, no one is really blaming, I'm actually just curious. Anyone who knows /b/, knows what they're capable of, especially if you give them your name and what you look like. In 99% of the cases, it just fizzles out, but was she really betting on not being the 1%?

lwat 14y ago

If someone pokes an alligator and gets into trouble, is that blaming the victim?

theorique 14y ago

It absolutely is blaming the victim. But what are we supposed to do when the victim bears some responsibility (obviously not all) for the process of their victimization? Most people have some concept of a moral ladder ranging from "totally innocent bystander" to "criminal who deserved what they got". For example: a person who dies while standing on a NYC sidewalk and gets hit by a falling air conditioner is essentially blameless; a person who dies by being shot by a police officer while robbing a store at gunpoint earned their just reward. Most situations, including this one, are less clear cut. She's not 0% responsible. She's not 100% responsible. But the correct number is somewhere in between. 5%? 10%? 20%? I don't know, and since I'm not presiding over a courtroom where she's suing 4chan, it's not my business to decide either. In any case, to suggest that a person who freely chooses to venture into one of the seediest holes on the Internet, and then actively taunts and trolls the inhabitants (who are known to be vengeful, technically capable, and gifted with a lot of free time and tenacity) is absolutely and completely free from responsibility? ... Well, I'm not sure how to answer that. Did /b/ overreact like a bunch of immature, possibly criminal, jerks? Of course they did. They played their part perfectly, living up to their terrible reputation. And if any of them have broken the law, then it's right that law enforcement get involved and the responsible parties be punished. Does this young woman deserve this? Of course not. But to ask the question, "what the hell was she thinking?", and to judge her partly responsible for the situation, is perfectly legitimate. She didn't deserve what happened, but she's not completely from responsibility for the outcome either.