3 ms·

>it's that Europe is so cowed and poorly-led If you have a 27 country bloc and are rationally limited to the actions of the most timid or compromised, it's pre

>it's that Europe is so cowed and poorly-led If you have a 27 country bloc and are rationally limited to the actions of the most timid or compromised, it's pretty easy to manipulate the actions of the whole. We know Hungary is effectively a Russia proxy, for instance, and has massively influenced the response to Russia. Similarly a couple of EU leaders (Meloni, Orban) are Trump lickspittles/mini-mes so there again they'll deny any collective response that offends their best pal.

ivan_gammel 1y ago
Hungary didn’t do anything that would make a big difference in the outcomes because the West does not have enough power to adequately sanction Russia. The real problem was that EU and USA failed to respond in the first year of war by mobilizing their economies for military production. Ukraine needed shells, tanks, air defense etc in much higher volume than allies could provide. Economic sanctions are face-saving measure for European politicians, because that war has never been seen as ours, yet some token response was necessary. Look at how much “solidarity” Ukrainian refugees receive now in Europe, where Poland started deporting people and Germany is cutting financial help. Europe isn’t cowed or poorly led. You just misunderstand its obscure priorities, which are trade, jobs for Ur-Europeans and climate change (which is a real problem here), while pretending that we care about the rest of the world, peace etc.
- myrmidon 1y ago
  > You just misunderstand its obscure priorities, which are trade, jobs for Ur-Europeans and climate change Are those obscure priorities though? Putting local employment/wellfare/environment first seems justifiable to me, no? I would argue that EU action has been pretty aligned with their actual citizens interests during this whole conflict: - Kept domestic consequences contained (energy price) - Prevented escalation - Scaled up domestic military readiness especially in border nations - Hurt destabilizing Russian expansionism via sanctions/secondhand arms almost for free I would much prefer a principled, strongly voiced NO to neo-imperialism in the form of massive support and intervention. But would that be in the best interest of most voters? I'd argue no.
  - ivan_gammel 1y ago
    > Are those obscure priorities though Only in the sense that they are not in the spotlight when EU officials talk about Ukraine. They don’t say “We have more important things to do”. But you are of course right, they dominate the agenda.

ivan_gammel 1y ago

Hungary didn’t do anything that would make a big difference in the outcomes because the West does not have enough power to adequately sanction Russia. The real problem was that EU and USA failed to respond in the first year of war by mobilizing their economies for military production. Ukraine needed shells, tanks, air defense etc in much higher volume than allies could provide. Economic sanctions are face-saving measure for European politicians, because that war has never been seen as ours, yet some token response was necessary. Look at how much “solidarity” Ukrainian refugees receive now in Europe, where Poland started deporting people and Germany is cutting financial help. Europe isn’t cowed or poorly led. You just misunderstand its obscure priorities, which are trade, jobs for Ur-Europeans and climate change (which is a real problem here), while pretending that we care about the rest of the world, peace etc.

myrmidon 1y ago
> You just misunderstand its obscure priorities, which are trade, jobs for Ur-Europeans and climate change Are those obscure priorities though? Putting local employment/wellfare/environment first seems justifiable to me, no? I would argue that EU action has been pretty aligned with their actual citizens interests during this whole conflict: - Kept domestic consequences contained (energy price) - Prevented escalation - Scaled up domestic military readiness especially in border nations - Hurt destabilizing Russian expansionism via sanctions/secondhand arms almost for free I would much prefer a principled, strongly voiced NO to neo-imperialism in the form of massive support and intervention. But would that be in the best interest of most voters? I'd argue no.
- ivan_gammel 1y ago
  > Are those obscure priorities though Only in the sense that they are not in the spotlight when EU officials talk about Ukraine. They don’t say “We have more important things to do”. But you are of course right, they dominate the agenda.