4 ms·

I'm in EU and maybe my opinion is controversial, but I think there's something very positive for EU citizens about Trump using tarrifs to pressure the EU politi

I'm in EU and maybe my opinion is controversial, but I think there's something very positive for EU citizens about Trump using tarrifs to pressure the EU politically. Why? Because it's basically our only hope of slowing down the evolution towards a centralized totalitarian EU government. It's pretty obvious that the EU wants to ban free speech (online) ASAP and fully control the public political narrative ASAP. I feel the US/Trump is our only hope of slowing this down as a guarantee of (future) true democracy at the EU level essentially doesn't exist for us any other way. The EU sees China as an example to follow and I feel Trump/US is the only thing trying to stop EU leadership of going there.

wkat4242 1y ago
Except Trump is just as authoritarian as China so what difference does it make who they adore?
- ExoticPearTree 1y ago
  > Except Trump is just as authoritarian as China so what difference does it make who they adore? How do you figure?
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    Oh maybe you haven't seen the news, sorry. The capitol storming and freeing all that participated. Having major cities being taken over by the army. Stifling free press. You know all that good old dictatorship playbook stuff.
    - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
      > The capitol storming and freeing all that participated. I don't have an opinion on that. It is the president's prerogative to pardon whoever he wants, no justification necessary. > Having major cities being taken over by the army. That is the National Guard. Not the same thing as the Army. The Army would be a very bad option should that happen. The cities are not taken over. The mayor/police chief of those cities have no desire to reign in crime, the federal government has to step in. Depending on your political views, this is a good thing or a bad thing. Bottom line is that people much more safer now in DC than they were 2-3 weeks ago. > Stifling free press. For this I have zero information. Link(s)?
      - computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
      - myvoiceismypass 1y ago
        > The cities are not taken over. The mayor/police chief of those cities have no desire to reign in crime, the federal government has to step in. Depending on your political views, this is a good thing or a bad thing. Bottom line is that people much more safer now in DC than they were 2-3 weeks ago. I find that the people who make statements like this don't actually live in cities. Its like you got your talking points from Stephen Miller.
        ExoticPearTree 1y ago
        > I find that the people who make statements like this don't actually live in cities. Its like you got your talking points from Stephen Miller. I actually leave in a big city. And I do not know who Stephen Miller is.
jleyank 1y ago
Given where Trump seems to be going, depending on him as a saviour of anything suggests fellow traveler status. Or, perhaps, staggering naivety.
bayindirh 1y ago
This is not a controversial take. If people can see what their future holds by seeing examples, they can take action regardless of their role in society. Currently we're seeing a global version of a SaaS rugpull, and this should wake people up, if they're not awaken already.
- ZeroGravitas 1y ago
  I think you see the US as a warning for how the EU could develop in an authoritarian way, and so inoculate it from making the same mistakes. I think the person you replied to thinks that the US is a shining beacon of liberty that is going to force the EU to be less authoritarian.
  - bayindirh 1y ago
    You're right, I read their comment wrong. My mistake. But, from the eastern border of the EU, US looks way more authoritarian than EU at this point in time. I like to watch this small excerpt from Frank Zappa interview time to time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fam5wRXcoQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fam5wRXcoQE
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    Shining beacon of liberty, no that's ridiculous, but in this case it is forcing the EU to be less authoritarian.
saubeidl 1y ago
I'd rather go to the China model of authoritarianism with working infrastructure (trains, what have you) and a belief in science than to the US model of anti-science regressive authoritarianism where the one percent are the new feudal lords...
- myrmidon 1y ago
  The big assumption here is that authoritarianism in Europe would get you better infrastructure. My personal belief is that for good infrastructure you want capable local industry (to build it) AND a population that is not too wealthy (because this gives additional infrastructure more relative value, keeps the workforce for building it more affordable and thus citizens less likely to oppose the whole thing). I don't think that having european dictators would really help either of those points, so my infrastructure expectations from neofascism are quite low.
- terminalshort 1y ago
  You think the "one percent" are anti-science authoritarians? Have you met them?
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    The Koch brothers and there anti climate science propaganda network immediately come to mind, as does the Mercer family and their sponsoring of Breitbart.
    - terminalshort 1y ago
      If I had said "you can't even find 2 extreme outliers among the 3 million 1%ers in the US that are opposed to one particular type of science because of their financial interests" then this would be a reasonable argument. But I didn't say that. And even then, Koch industries is a terrible example. They employ thousands of scientists and engineers.
jacooper 1y ago
Trump and free speech in one sentence?! Did you see what they did against protestoors in university campuses or how many people they arrested or deported for just saying their opinion? I want whatever you're on mate.
thrance 1y ago
How exactly is the US/Trump preventing the progress of this wave of authoritarianism? They're part of it, dummy. Using all their influence and power to prop up far right parties accross the continent, normalizing insane ideas about population control and ending democracy. There's no getting out of this without a genuine regain of interest in actual liberal values (not speaking of american democrats here), and Trump embodies their exact opposite.
pjmlp 1y ago
As Portuguese living in Germany for a few decades, I feel that first we need to sort out the local mess, otherwise the central EU is already lost anyway.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Both are true IMHO. EU has structural domestic problems it keeps ignoring for too long and now it also has external new ones on top: Russia, Trump, etc. Both need fixing. The thing is, EU politicians have been more than asleep at the wheel for over 2 decades now coasting along, and it shows in the mess we are in today: energy polices, tech development, economic growth, unsustainable welfare state, lack of strong defense, etc. All they do is flashy speeches and virtue signaling on the international stage while not actually fixing any problems, just cashing in their paycheques till they can reitre on their generous pensions and leve the mess for the next ones to fix or just keep kicking the can down the road.
  - wolvesechoes 1y ago
    Current elites are discredited, as is (neo)liberalism, but I don't think we will have any significant shift until a really serious crisis, because overall public still cannot face new reality, and politics is downstream of culture. So it will get worse until it can get better.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >So it will get worse until it can get better. Sure, the issue is that whenever Europe "got worse" in a serious crisis, it never ended well. Usually millions died, and it was only better after that for a little while. So what do we do?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 1y ago
> evolution towards a centralized totalitarian EU government Replacing it with a centralized totalitarian US government that we don't even get to vote on. Trump's approach to free speech: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-abc-nbc-broadcast-licenses-b2813617.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...
LunaSea 1y ago
> Why? Because it's basically our only hope of slowing down the evolution towards a centralized totalitarian EU government. It's pretty obvious that the EU wants to ban free speech (online) ASAP and fully control the public political narrative ASAP. The countries already want to it themselves. See the UK for an example.
sigmar 1y ago
>It's pretty obvious that the EU wants to ban free speech (online) ASAP and fully control the public political narrative ASAP. What specific actions has the EU done to ban free speech and control the political narrative? I see the US deporting legal permanent residents when they peacefully protest against US policy[1]. and I see the US searching social media accounts and forbidding private accounts[2] for visa applicants. Both of those seem like Trump is attempting to control political speech more than anything the EU has done. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil [2] To facilitate this vetting, all applicants for F, M, and J nonimmigrant visas will be instructed to adjust the privacy settings on all of their social media profiles to “public.” https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/2025/06/announcement-of-expanded-screening-and-vetting-for-visa-applicants https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...
wolvesechoes 1y ago
First, there are no EU citizens. Only citizens of countries that are EU members. Second, no EU-wide regulation can come into being without support from Council, and Council is formed by member countries. As always, people are complaining EU this, EU that, when EU in reality is their own country, among others. It will be your country that will do the censorship etc. If your country is small and weak it has low impact on the international state of affairs, regardless of its membership in the EU. Macron or Merz have much more to say than von der Leyen.

wkat4242 1y ago

Except Trump is just as authoritarian as China so what difference does it make who they adore?

ExoticPearTree 1y ago
> Except Trump is just as authoritarian as China so what difference does it make who they adore? How do you figure?
- wkat4242 1y ago
  Oh maybe you haven't seen the news, sorry. The capitol storming and freeing all that participated. Having major cities being taken over by the army. Stifling free press. You know all that good old dictatorship playbook stuff.
  - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
    > The capitol storming and freeing all that participated. I don't have an opinion on that. It is the president's prerogative to pardon whoever he wants, no justification necessary. > Having major cities being taken over by the army. That is the National Guard. Not the same thing as the Army. The Army would be a very bad option should that happen. The cities are not taken over. The mayor/police chief of those cities have no desire to reign in crime, the federal government has to step in. Depending on your political views, this is a good thing or a bad thing. Bottom line is that people much more safer now in DC than they were 2-3 weeks ago. > Stifling free press. For this I have zero information. Link(s)?
    - computerthings 1y ago
      [dead]
    - myvoiceismypass 1y ago
      > The cities are not taken over. The mayor/police chief of those cities have no desire to reign in crime, the federal government has to step in. Depending on your political views, this is a good thing or a bad thing. Bottom line is that people much more safer now in DC than they were 2-3 weeks ago. I find that the people who make statements like this don't actually live in cities. Its like you got your talking points from Stephen Miller.
      - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
        > I find that the people who make statements like this don't actually live in cities. Its like you got your talking points from Stephen Miller. I actually leave in a big city. And I do not know who Stephen Miller is.

jleyank 1y ago

Given where Trump seems to be going, depending on him as a saviour of anything suggests fellow traveler status. Or, perhaps, staggering naivety.

bayindirh 1y ago

This is not a controversial take. If people can see what their future holds by seeing examples, they can take action regardless of their role in society. Currently we're seeing a global version of a SaaS rugpull, and this should wake people up, if they're not awaken already.

ZeroGravitas 1y ago
I think you see the US as a warning for how the EU could develop in an authoritarian way, and so inoculate it from making the same mistakes. I think the person you replied to thinks that the US is a shining beacon of liberty that is going to force the EU to be less authoritarian.
- bayindirh 1y ago
  You're right, I read their comment wrong. My mistake. But, from the eastern border of the EU, US looks way more authoritarian than EU at this point in time. I like to watch this small excerpt from Frank Zappa interview time to time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fam5wRXcoQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fam5wRXcoQE
- terminalshort 1y ago
  Shining beacon of liberty, no that's ridiculous, but in this case it is forcing the EU to be less authoritarian.

saubeidl 1y ago

I'd rather go to the China model of authoritarianism with working infrastructure (trains, what have you) and a belief in science than to the US model of anti-science regressive authoritarianism where the one percent are the new feudal lords...

myrmidon 1y ago
The big assumption here is that authoritarianism in Europe would get you better infrastructure. My personal belief is that for good infrastructure you want capable local industry (to build it) AND a population that is not too wealthy (because this gives additional infrastructure more relative value, keeps the workforce for building it more affordable and thus citizens less likely to oppose the whole thing). I don't think that having european dictators would really help either of those points, so my infrastructure expectations from neofascism are quite low.
terminalshort 1y ago
You think the "one percent" are anti-science authoritarians? Have you met them?
- saubeidl 1y ago
  The Koch brothers and there anti climate science propaganda network immediately come to mind, as does the Mercer family and their sponsoring of Breitbart.
  - terminalshort 1y ago
    If I had said "you can't even find 2 extreme outliers among the 3 million 1%ers in the US that are opposed to one particular type of science because of their financial interests" then this would be a reasonable argument. But I didn't say that. And even then, Koch industries is a terrible example. They employ thousands of scientists and engineers.

jacooper 1y ago

Trump and free speech in one sentence?! Did you see what they did against protestoors in university campuses or how many people they arrested or deported for just saying their opinion? I want whatever you're on mate.

thrance 1y ago

How exactly is the US/Trump preventing the progress of this wave of authoritarianism? They're part of it, dummy. Using all their influence and power to prop up far right parties accross the continent, normalizing insane ideas about population control and ending democracy. There's no getting out of this without a genuine regain of interest in actual liberal values (not speaking of american democrats here), and Trump embodies their exact opposite.

pjmlp 1y ago

As Portuguese living in Germany for a few decades, I feel that first we need to sort out the local mess, otherwise the central EU is already lost anyway.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Both are true IMHO. EU has structural domestic problems it keeps ignoring for too long and now it also has external new ones on top: Russia, Trump, etc. Both need fixing. The thing is, EU politicians have been more than asleep at the wheel for over 2 decades now coasting along, and it shows in the mess we are in today: energy polices, tech development, economic growth, unsustainable welfare state, lack of strong defense, etc. All they do is flashy speeches and virtue signaling on the international stage while not actually fixing any problems, just cashing in their paycheques till they can reitre on their generous pensions and leve the mess for the next ones to fix or just keep kicking the can down the road.
- wolvesechoes 1y ago
  Current elites are discredited, as is (neo)liberalism, but I don't think we will have any significant shift until a really serious crisis, because overall public still cannot face new reality, and politics is downstream of culture. So it will get worse until it can get better.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    >So it will get worse until it can get better. Sure, the issue is that whenever Europe "got worse" in a serious crisis, it never ended well. Usually millions died, and it was only better after that for a little while. So what do we do?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

pjc50 1y ago

> evolution towards a centralized totalitarian EU government Replacing it with a centralized totalitarian US government that we don't even get to vote on. Trump's approach to free speech: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-abc-nbc-broadcast-licenses-b2813617.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic...

LunaSea 1y ago

> Why? Because it's basically our only hope of slowing down the evolution towards a centralized totalitarian EU government. It's pretty obvious that the EU wants to ban free speech (online) ASAP and fully control the public political narrative ASAP. The countries already want to it themselves. See the UK for an example.

sigmar 1y ago

>It's pretty obvious that the EU wants to ban free speech (online) ASAP and fully control the public political narrative ASAP. What specific actions has the EU done to ban free speech and control the political narrative? I see the US deporting legal permanent residents when they peacefully protest against US policy[1]. and I see the US searching social media accounts and forbidding private accounts[2] for visa applicants. Both of those seem like Trump is attempting to control political speech more than anything the EU has done. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_Mahmoud_Khalil [2] To facilitate this vetting, all applicants for F, M, and J nonimmigrant visas will be instructed to adjust the privacy settings on all of their social media profiles to “public.” https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/2025/06/announcement-of-expanded-screening-and-vetting-for-visa-applicants https://www.state.gov/releases/office-of-the-spokesperson/20...

wolvesechoes 1y ago

First, there are no EU citizens. Only citizens of countries that are EU members. Second, no EU-wide regulation can come into being without support from Council, and Council is formed by member countries. As always, people are complaining EU this, EU that, when EU in reality is their own country, among others. It will be your country that will do the censorship etc. If your country is small and weak it has low impact on the international state of affairs, regardless of its membership in the EU. Macron or Merz have much more to say than von der Leyen.