4 ms·

The cantor set exists in a real phenomenon? Any real phenomenon? That makes me feel like we live in a simulation perhaps more than anything else I’ve heard. Thi

by hawkjo 1y ago

The cantor set exists in a real phenomenon? Any real phenomenon? That makes me feel like we live in a simulation perhaps more than anything else I’ve heard. This story is a nice description of the people, but I want more on implications. What is going on here?

anthk 1y ago
https://www.recursivebecoming.info/RBT_v1.0_release.pdf https://www.recursivebecoming.info/RBT_v1.0_release.pdf Also: Church encodings for integers and bootstrapping number systems from the empty set. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding And Lisp, of course; where the book Gödel, Escher, Bach shows's up how to build a number system from empty lists: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/church_encoding.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/church_encoding.html
taneq 1y ago
An approximation, I’d imagine. I wouldn’t expect it to manifest in any real physical sense, any more than I’d expect an actual physical “unit circle” object to have a circumference of exactly two Pi.
- gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
  It's as much an approx as any physical measurement is. As for "real world" implications, Hinton probably deserves the physics Nobel more than (the) Hofstadter who predicted this phenom (as a grad student) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter%27s_butterfly#:~:text=This%20discontinuity%20is,of%20finite%20size. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter%27s_butterfly#:~:te...
  - taneq 1y ago
    > It's as much an approx as any physical measurement is. This is exactly the point I was making, so I agree. :)
  - madcaptenor 1y ago
    Fun fact: Douglas Hofstadter's father, Robert, actually did win the physics Nobel.
- anthk 1y ago
  Real world has a measured 'pi' everywhere; from electromagnetics to probability.
gchamonlive 1y ago
> That makes me feel like we live in a simulation perhaps more than anything else I’ve heard I'm never quite sure what this is meant to mean. Is it comparing to other simulations like computer games or physical simulations where you could change a seed or a data structure and have it manifest in reality? What is expected from a simulation to differ from reality? What does it even mean to make this distinction when we are observing inside the process we are trying to distinguish between real and simulated?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  Most people generally think that it means that there is a higher-level reality, and that there are beings within that higher-level reality engaged in creating our simulation. "Gods" for lack of a better word. I prefer Greg Egan's interpretation in Permutation City, where simulations can become self-bootstrapping and that simulations need no "simulator" at all. No one's loaded universe.exe in some higher-lever reality, it runs itself. That still won't stop me from attempting rowhammer attacks.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    Until we can download some else's consciousness from a different universe into this one, similar to what happens to Durham, this is just an interesting thought experiment. And even then, how could we distinguish an alien human consciousness from someone having a severe dissociation episode?
  - cluckindan 1y ago
    It could also mean there is a lower-level, more fundamental reality, in which the building blocks of our reality emerge. It could even be a very simple system, as long as it produces complex behavior.
    - EMIRELADERO 1y ago
      Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6Y4lE3LTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6Y4lE3LTo
rnhmjoj 1y ago
Well, if you consider that the setting of the problem is non-interacting, two-dimensional electrons in an infinite lattice, there's not much real about it. These patterns will likely disappear in a more realistic situation.
- anentropic 1y ago
  Didn't this same article state that: "They placed two thin layers of graphene in a magnetic field, then measured the energy levels of the graphene’s electrons. The quantum fractal emerged in all its glory." So they actually realised it.
  - rnhmjoj 1y ago
    Sure, but it will only be some finite approximation to the mathematical fractal.
    - nobody083648 1y ago
      I hear ya man. They got architects out here building with 3.14159 and calling it π, just utter trash
      - IAmBroom 1y ago
        Worse: the Sphere in Las Vegas redefined several subsections of the first few hundred digits... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPL8pM8Xkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPL8pM8Xkw Update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1MZWBZbQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1MZWBZbQU
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

by hawkjo 1y ago

anthk 1y ago

https://www.recursivebecoming.info/RBT_v1.0_release.pdf https://www.recursivebecoming.info/RBT_v1.0_release.pdf Also: Church encodings for integers and bootstrapping number systems from the empty set. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding And Lisp, of course; where the book Gödel, Escher, Bach shows's up how to build a number system from empty lists: https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/church_encoding.html https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/church_encoding.html

taneq 1y ago

An approximation, I’d imagine. I wouldn’t expect it to manifest in any real physical sense, any more than I’d expect an actual physical “unit circle” object to have a circumference of exactly two Pi.

gsf_emergency_2 1y ago
It's as much an approx as any physical measurement is. As for "real world" implications, Hinton probably deserves the physics Nobel more than (the) Hofstadter who predicted this phenom (as a grad student) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter%27s_butterfly#:~:text=This%20discontinuity%20is,of%20finite%20size. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofstadter%27s_butterfly#:~:te...
- taneq 1y ago
  > It's as much an approx as any physical measurement is. This is exactly the point I was making, so I agree. :)
- madcaptenor 1y ago
  Fun fact: Douglas Hofstadter's father, Robert, actually did win the physics Nobel.
anthk 1y ago
Real world has a measured 'pi' everywhere; from electromagnetics to probability.

gchamonlive 1y ago

> That makes me feel like we live in a simulation perhaps more than anything else I’ve heard I'm never quite sure what this is meant to mean. Is it comparing to other simulations like computer games or physical simulations where you could change a seed or a data structure and have it manifest in reality? What is expected from a simulation to differ from reality? What does it even mean to make this distinction when we are observing inside the process we are trying to distinguish between real and simulated?

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
Most people generally think that it means that there is a higher-level reality, and that there are beings within that higher-level reality engaged in creating our simulation. "Gods" for lack of a better word. I prefer Greg Egan's interpretation in Permutation City, where simulations can become self-bootstrapping and that simulations need no "simulator" at all. No one's loaded universe.exe in some higher-lever reality, it runs itself. That still won't stop me from attempting rowhammer attacks.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  Until we can download some else's consciousness from a different universe into this one, similar to what happens to Durham, this is just an interesting thought experiment. And even then, how could we distinguish an alien human consciousness from someone having a severe dissociation episode?
- cluckindan 1y ago
  It could also mean there is a lower-level, more fundamental reality, in which the building blocks of our reality emerge. It could even be a very simple system, as long as it produces complex behavior.
  - EMIRELADERO 1y ago
    Relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6Y4lE3LTo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6Y4lE3LTo

rnhmjoj 1y ago

Well, if you consider that the setting of the problem is non-interacting, two-dimensional electrons in an infinite lattice, there's not much real about it. These patterns will likely disappear in a more realistic situation.

anentropic 1y ago
Didn't this same article state that: "They placed two thin layers of graphene in a magnetic field, then measured the energy levels of the graphene’s electrons. The quantum fractal emerged in all its glory." So they actually realised it.
- rnhmjoj 1y ago
  Sure, but it will only be some finite approximation to the mathematical fractal.
  - nobody083648 1y ago
    I hear ya man. They got architects out here building with 3.14159 and calling it π, just utter trash
    - IAmBroom 1y ago
      Worse: the Sphere in Las Vegas redefined several subsections of the first few hundred digits... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPL8pM8Xkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLPL8pM8Xkw Update: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1MZWBZbQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW1MZWBZbQU

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]