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That's doubtful. To do that, St. Paul would need to make all the other 12 apostles buy into the story and start spreading it. Then do the same with the extende

That's doubtful. To do that, St. Paul would need to make all the other 12 apostles buy into the story and start spreading it. Then do the same with the extended 70 apostles and their disciples. And, of course, change the gospels. In addition, the "concept of Jesus" is something that's woven throughout the Old Testament. St. Paul would have to go back in time and change the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah.

jacquesm 1y ago
He would have written a self-help book for wannabe cult starters titled 'How to get your first 12 customers'. What is interesting about this project is that it cleanly splits off the real and verifiable components from the fantastic bits.
- doodlebugging 1y ago
  From the map dialog for Lystra, visited on his first and second journeys: ** >Second Journey Verses (Acts16:1-5): >Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers. ** I guess you need to have rules if you're gonna let people play the disciple game. Rule #1 - Get circumsized. This rule may be most effective at limiting disciple group size since any uncommitted wannabees would take a hard pass. I'm left wondering whether this could be the origin of "just the tip", or tipping culture? Luckily for Timothy, Paul was a tent-maker or leather-worker, depending on which translation you favor, so he likely had some really sharp tools and would be able to make short work of this little project. Timothy probably didn't find much delight in pitching tents for a while though. Pretty funny trying to imagine walking around preaching for converts after this operation and wondering whether they had a cone or something like your cat gets at the vet to shield the parts from scratchy robes while walking. Probably lots of talking to God on those journeys.
fjfaase 1y ago
An argument against the position that the "concept of Jesus" is woven throughout the Old Testament is that the Jews did not accept him as such. And yes, I do know about all the 'christian' reasons why that did not happen, but it is rather obvious that there is no need to rewrite the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah.
- photios 1y ago
  > no need to rewrite the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah Funny you mention that. Because those Jews (not all of them, mind you) that did not accept the Messiah did try to change the book of Isaiah. The mental gymnastics about the "Almah" translation continue to this day. https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-virgin-birth/ https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-v...
arp242 1y ago
> In addition, the "concept of Jesus" is something that's woven throughout the Old Testament. St. Paul would have to go back in time and change the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah. As I understand it, a number of people claimed to be the Messiah in Jesus' lifetime (and before, or since for that matter, including today). I don't think Old Testament references to the Messiah are all that meaningful as such for this particular discussion. Whether Jesus is or isn't the Messiah is of course a matter of faith.
- photios 1y ago
  > a number of people claimed to be the Messiah in Jesus' lifetime (and before, or since for that matter, including today) Yes, they imitated and used the "concept of Jesus". That's why I think St. Paul did not invent it.
  - arp242 1y ago
    Right; I understood that more as "the person Jesus", rather than the broader concept of the Messiah.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - bazoom42 1y ago
    They didnt use “the concept of Jesus”. Jesus is just the name of one person who some believed was the messiah.
Jedd 1y ago
> Paul would need to make all the other 12 apostles buy into the story and start spreading it. I'm not sure that follows. What works do you believe that we have from these 12 people - and how would you evaluate the relative credibility of them and Paul / Saul? As I understand it, Paul conceded he got all his information <sic> about Jesus from revelation, and there's a compelling argument to be made that his works all describe a different entity (a supernatural one) than the human-like character described elsewhere, and much later, in the NT.
bambax 1y ago
Paul's writings largely precede the gospels, so he wouldn't have needed to "change" them. They were written later. He could have drafted them himself for all we know.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > They were written later. He could have drafted them himself for all we know. I mean, that's not at all true. You’d have to ignore the same research that tells us that they were written later in the first place to say we have no information with which to reject that they have a common authorship with the Pauline corpus.
cheraderama 1y ago
There is no mention of the 12 apostles except for IIRC 1 Cor 15 which is likely an interpolation. He mentions only James (bro of Jesus, curiously erased from history), Cephas (/Peter?) and John. And he doesn't use kind words about them...
bazoom42 1y ago
Nobody has claimed Paul invented the idea of the Messiah.

jacquesm 1y ago

He would have written a self-help book for wannabe cult starters titled 'How to get your first 12 customers'. What is interesting about this project is that it cleanly splits off the real and verifiable components from the fantastic bits.

doodlebugging 1y ago
From the map dialog for Lystra, visited on his first and second journeys: ** >Second Journey Verses (Acts16:1-5): >Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. 4 As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey. 5 So the churches were strengthened in the faith and grew daily in numbers. ** I guess you need to have rules if you're gonna let people play the disciple game. Rule #1 - Get circumsized. This rule may be most effective at limiting disciple group size since any uncommitted wannabees would take a hard pass. I'm left wondering whether this could be the origin of "just the tip", or tipping culture? Luckily for Timothy, Paul was a tent-maker or leather-worker, depending on which translation you favor, so he likely had some really sharp tools and would be able to make short work of this little project. Timothy probably didn't find much delight in pitching tents for a while though. Pretty funny trying to imagine walking around preaching for converts after this operation and wondering whether they had a cone or something like your cat gets at the vet to shield the parts from scratchy robes while walking. Probably lots of talking to God on those journeys.

fjfaase 1y ago

An argument against the position that the "concept of Jesus" is woven throughout the Old Testament is that the Jews did not accept him as such. And yes, I do know about all the 'christian' reasons why that did not happen, but it is rather obvious that there is no need to rewrite the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah.

photios 1y ago
> no need to rewrite the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah Funny you mention that. Because those Jews (not all of them, mind you) that did not accept the Messiah did try to change the book of Isaiah. The mental gymnastics about the "Almah" translation continue to this day. https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-virgin-birth/ https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/isaiah-714-a-v...

arp242 1y ago

> In addition, the "concept of Jesus" is something that's woven throughout the Old Testament. St. Paul would have to go back in time and change the Torah and books of prophets like Daniel and Isaiah. As I understand it, a number of people claimed to be the Messiah in Jesus' lifetime (and before, or since for that matter, including today). I don't think Old Testament references to the Messiah are all that meaningful as such for this particular discussion. Whether Jesus is or isn't the Messiah is of course a matter of faith.

photios 1y ago
> a number of people claimed to be the Messiah in Jesus' lifetime (and before, or since for that matter, including today) Yes, they imitated and used the "concept of Jesus". That's why I think St. Paul did not invent it.
- arp242 1y ago
  Right; I understood that more as "the person Jesus", rather than the broader concept of the Messiah.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bazoom42 1y ago
  They didnt use “the concept of Jesus”. Jesus is just the name of one person who some believed was the messiah.

Jedd 1y ago

> Paul would need to make all the other 12 apostles buy into the story and start spreading it. I'm not sure that follows. What works do you believe that we have from these 12 people - and how would you evaluate the relative credibility of them and Paul / Saul? As I understand it, Paul conceded he got all his information <sic> about Jesus from revelation, and there's a compelling argument to be made that his works all describe a different entity (a supernatural one) than the human-like character described elsewhere, and much later, in the NT.

bambax 1y ago

Paul's writings largely precede the gospels, so he wouldn't have needed to "change" them. They were written later. He could have drafted them himself for all we know.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> They were written later. He could have drafted them himself for all we know. I mean, that's not at all true. You’d have to ignore the same research that tells us that they were written later in the first place to say we have no information with which to reject that they have a common authorship with the Pauline corpus.

cheraderama 1y ago

There is no mention of the 12 apostles except for IIRC 1 Cor 15 which is likely an interpolation. He mentions only James (bro of Jesus, curiously erased from history), Cephas (/Peter?) and John. And he doesn't use kind words about them...

bazoom42 1y ago

Nobody has claimed Paul invented the idea of the Messiah.