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Challenges --- I can't be transparent about all of these, but I'd say they were split into a few sections: personal challenges; user acquisition; crappy marke

Challenges --- I can't be transparent about all of these, but I'd say they were split into a few sections: personal challenges; user acquisition; crappy market/model choice; code/complexity. On the personal challenges front, both Benjie and I were pounded by one major unfortunate event after another (deaths, illness and so forth) right from the start of YC through to this year. It's hard not to get drained by that, especially when you need to grind hard on a startup. From a user acquisition perspective, as I've mentioned elsewhere we didn't really allow ourselves enough margin to do this well. We tried everything from ads (we managed to hustle a free ad placement with millions of page views) to buying users on TapJoy (as it used to be) to social/viral to GameCenter to App Store SEO. Nothing worked well enough to be long-term sustainable and profitable. You could argue we had poor product-market fit, but that's hard to say. Market choice. P90X, WiiFit, exercise DVDs - those become $1b markets. CrossFit is a $1b company. Fitness apps... not so much. We should have chosen a market that was easier to reach and monetize but that's not where our passion was at the time. Code. Man was this app complex. Absolute nightmare to test and maintain. You know what works better than this app? The NHS "Couch to 5k" podcasts. Low tech with good marketing utterly trounces fancy high tech stuff.

Domenic_S 14y ago
> P90X, WiiFit, exercise DVDs - those become $1b markets. Massive margin on buy-once items + insane marketing budgets = $$$. Even Billy Blanks Jr is having a hard time with his DVDs (http://www.meettheblanks.com/ http://www.meettheblanks.com/, watch the Shark Tank episode if you haven't already). Fitness is fickle. > CrossFit is a $1b company. Gyms make so much money because they hard sell you to commit, then you sign a contract you can't get out of.
- JofArnold 14y ago
  This ^. Your reply is way more succinct than mine - thanks.
- JofArnold 14y ago
  I'll add that the gyms one is slightly subtle. It's not just about the contracts locking you in (those are becoming less common) but it's that in the eyes of many gym-goers the membership buys them an opportunity to get fit. They perceive value in holding a membership. They are also afraid to let it go because they would have to face facts about their commitment.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- dkarl 14y ago
  I know this is ridiculously off-topic, but Crossfit doesn't work at all like that. To the best of my knowledge, Crossfit doesn't even sell contracts to people who haven't graduated from the six week intro class, which is a serious reality check for people who prefer to keep exercise in the realm of fantasy. Thus, they weed out the best potential absentee customers before they can even buy a contract. My instructor emails me when I skip class and then gives me shit about it (in a good-natured way, of course) when I show up for the next one. Gyms love people who don't show up. They only care who pays and who doesn't. At Crossfit, they get grouchy if you pay and don't show up. They literally complain about free money! It's unfair to lump them in with the big box gyms whose business model depends on people not getting what they paid for. It's true that my current facility requires a one-year contract to get the very best rates, which was a shock since my previous Crossfit facility only had one-month and three-month contracts, but that's nothing compared to big box gyms selling five-year memberships, offering guaranteed low monthly fees for a big one-time "lifetime membership" fee, and making it ridiculously hard to cancel recurring payments. Also, there's zero sales pressure on contracts. I've never spoken to anyone affiliated with Crossfit except the instructors, and I've never spoken to them about money except when signing up at a new facility. A better summary for how Crossfit makes their money would be charging high prices and being the dominant brand in a market they created.
  - JofArnold 14y ago
    CrossFit the company makes money from its affiliates I gather. PS, I love CrossFit - been doing it for about a year now.
    - dkarl 14y ago
      Well, yes -- and a farmer gets corn from cornstalks :-)
- dave1619 14y ago
  Just watched the Shark Tank episode with Billy Blanks Jr. How do you know he's having a hard time with his DVDs?
dave1619 14y ago
Why didn't you think you could take on P90X and/or exercise DVDs?
- JofArnold 14y ago
  Apps tend to retail for just a few dollars and there's only a few exceptions. This means the max per-unit profit is just a few cents (or perhaps a dollar or two). P90X on the other hand makes several orders of magnitude more per sake. So even if we saturated the app fitness market, we'd still be far from P90X in terms of revenue. Whilst app stores do assist in acquiring users, the effect is tiny compared with having a marketing budget of potentially $100 a user. That sort of thing. It's probably quite a long answer I'm afraid. I suppose the TL;DR would be "don't take part in a race to the bottom".

Domenic_S 14y ago

> P90X, WiiFit, exercise DVDs - those become $1b markets. Massive margin on buy-once items + insane marketing budgets = $$$. Even Billy Blanks Jr is having a hard time with his DVDs (http://www.meettheblanks.com/ http://www.meettheblanks.com/, watch the Shark Tank episode if you haven't already). Fitness is fickle. > CrossFit is a $1b company. Gyms make so much money because they hard sell you to commit, then you sign a contract you can't get out of.

JofArnold 14y ago
This ^. Your reply is way more succinct than mine - thanks.
JofArnold 14y ago
I'll add that the gyms one is slightly subtle. It's not just about the contracts locking you in (those are becoming less common) but it's that in the eyes of many gym-goers the membership buys them an opportunity to get fit. They perceive value in holding a membership. They are also afraid to let it go because they would have to face facts about their commitment.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
dkarl 14y ago
I know this is ridiculously off-topic, but Crossfit doesn't work at all like that. To the best of my knowledge, Crossfit doesn't even sell contracts to people who haven't graduated from the six week intro class, which is a serious reality check for people who prefer to keep exercise in the realm of fantasy. Thus, they weed out the best potential absentee customers before they can even buy a contract. My instructor emails me when I skip class and then gives me shit about it (in a good-natured way, of course) when I show up for the next one. Gyms love people who don't show up. They only care who pays and who doesn't. At Crossfit, they get grouchy if you pay and don't show up. They literally complain about free money! It's unfair to lump them in with the big box gyms whose business model depends on people not getting what they paid for. It's true that my current facility requires a one-year contract to get the very best rates, which was a shock since my previous Crossfit facility only had one-month and three-month contracts, but that's nothing compared to big box gyms selling five-year memberships, offering guaranteed low monthly fees for a big one-time "lifetime membership" fee, and making it ridiculously hard to cancel recurring payments. Also, there's zero sales pressure on contracts. I've never spoken to anyone affiliated with Crossfit except the instructors, and I've never spoken to them about money except when signing up at a new facility. A better summary for how Crossfit makes their money would be charging high prices and being the dominant brand in a market they created.
- JofArnold 14y ago
  CrossFit the company makes money from its affiliates I gather. PS, I love CrossFit - been doing it for about a year now.
  - dkarl 14y ago
    Well, yes -- and a farmer gets corn from cornstalks :-)
dave1619 14y ago
Just watched the Shark Tank episode with Billy Blanks Jr. How do you know he's having a hard time with his DVDs?

dave1619 14y ago

Why didn't you think you could take on P90X and/or exercise DVDs?

JofArnold 14y ago
Apps tend to retail for just a few dollars and there's only a few exceptions. This means the max per-unit profit is just a few cents (or perhaps a dollar or two). P90X on the other hand makes several orders of magnitude more per sake. So even if we saturated the app fitness market, we'd still be far from P90X in terms of revenue. Whilst app stores do assist in acquiring users, the effect is tiny compared with having a marketing budget of potentially $100 a user. That sort of thing. It's probably quite a long answer I'm afraid. I suppose the TL;DR would be "don't take part in a race to the bottom".