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This is why centralized social media took off. It is easy to understand and use. Even within Mastodon it’s a mess with all the various servers. It’s too confus

This is why centralized social media took off. It is easy to understand and use. Even within Mastodon it’s a mess with all the various servers. It’s too confusing. I know people like to compare it with email, but with email I’m sending from server A to server B, I’m not sending from server A to hundreds of other servers and seeing that it doesn’t always make it everywhere. And if I edit or delete a post, maybe those changes will propagate out, but maybe not. Conceptually it’s hard, but even as a user who doesn’t care as long as the magic works… the magic doesn’t work all that well. So where does that leave decentralized social media? Bring back blogs + rss as the norm. It makes sense, it works, the user is in control, and it never feels like it is trying to substitute for human connection.

JimDabell 1y ago
> I know people like to compare it with email There is another, closer comparison to be made: Google Plus. With Google Plus, I suddenly had multiple social media accounts on Google Plus – I had the Google Plus profile associated with my personal Google account, the Google Plus profile associated with the place I worked, and the Google Plus profile associated with my freelance business. And to make it worse, it didn’t roll out all at once, so I added people I hung out with and worked with on my personal account, then had to re-do it again when my work account happened. And people were randomly adding me on whichever one they found first. I don’t think Google Plus got this right at all, and it feels like federation is making a lot of the similar mistakes to Google Plus.
- specialist 1y ago
  IMHO: profiles (personas, aliases, alts) are orthogonal to federation. I once thought personas were critically important. Something like Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P). But 1) I wasn't smart enough to figure out how to prevent deanonymonization and 2) USA govt didn't protect our privacy, so there is no market for a privacy preserving stack.
- pjc50 1y ago
  Keeping the accounts separate seems like an extremely mandatory feature to me. If I had multiple Google accounts I would absolutely not want any information leakage from one to the other.
echelon 1y ago
Just give me P2P social media and put me in the swarm. BitTorrent for Reddit and Twitter. It shouldn't matter what servers are anywhere. It should all be eventually consistent for some agglomerated cluster sampling of the world. Make the content immutable and ephemeral. People that care to archive it will. Federation is silly and is part of the problem. Plus it creates more little fiefdoms. I'll subscribe to my own filters if I care, and my agent will handle the rest.
- kemotep 1y ago
  Well you can run your own ActivityPub Server/Client and subscribe (and thus federate) with anyone who hasn’t explicitly blocked you from federating with them. Bridge that with AT and you can see and interact with whatever you want on the Fediverse.
- alisonatwork 1y ago
  I don't think this approach will work for most people. Assuming the Bluesky firehose is 50GB/day, that's a massive amount of data to have to download just to filter for the handful of events a person might actually be interested in. My phone barely goes through a couple GB per month! But perhaps for efficiency I should rent a server to do the filtering on the cloud and then sync it down to my phone? Well then why not instead consume from a server which already did most of the filtering that I wanted? And now we get back to something like usenet, or the modern day fediverse.
  - tough 1y ago
    how i would make it work is you'd only download actual bits you care about, the rest can be handled by indexers you pay for to help you sort it out
    - alisonatwork 1y ago
      I guess this is when it gets fuzzy. A true peer-to-peer social network would mean that every node has to be able to get everything and also be able to share whatever it has with every other node. If every participant on this kind of social network was required to maintain their own "seedbox", then it implicitly limits access to only people with means. But if there were hubs funded by groups of interested people that allowed those folks to share the cost of "seeding" and in return only "leech" the information they care about... then isn't that essentially the same kind of decentralization that already exists on the fediverse? The way I understand it, instances are set up by communities of people with similar interests and those instances are configured to only propagate a subset of the events that their community is interested in.
bigyabai 1y ago
> Even within Mastodon it’s a mess with all the various servers. It’s too confusing. That's news to me, as a Mastodon user. I just scroll my homeserver's default feed and get stuff from all over the internet.
- dingnuts 1y ago
  no, you get the subset your homeserver administrator decides to rehost
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    Which in my case, includes stuff from all over the internet. I don't think anyone's feed includes everything from the internet.
    - righthand 1y ago
      To add: not even a centralized service includes everything from the internet.
  - thejohnconway 1y ago
    I don't think that's a good way of stating it. You get the posts from the people anyone on your server follows. An admin can block or silence accounts, or run a relay, but these are edge cases.
    - ekianjo 1y ago
      An admin can decide to unfollow a bunch of instances and as a user you have no recourse.
      - egypturnash 1y ago
        you can say "hey could you refollow those instances" you could throw more money into the instance's tip jar to make it easier for them to decide to rehost a larger part of the data firehose - that may not be the entire reason they defederated from an instance but it may be part of it you could move to another instance whose admin's choices are more in line with yours
3RTB297 1y ago
I just commented above, but it's really more like being a student at a university. You can enter all the buildings with your student ID. You can be friends with people in other dorms and enter the building. Even though you're an engineering student you can take classes in the economics or theater or applied science schools. Though, IMO Mastodon not the better of the fediverse platforms, but I don't love microblogging social media. But it's all going to end up being like Linux. Some people tried it once, didn't like it, and then 10 years from now it'll be totally different and everyone will wonder where it's been all their lives.

JimDabell 1y ago

> I know people like to compare it with email There is another, closer comparison to be made: Google Plus. With Google Plus, I suddenly had multiple social media accounts on Google Plus – I had the Google Plus profile associated with my personal Google account, the Google Plus profile associated with the place I worked, and the Google Plus profile associated with my freelance business. And to make it worse, it didn’t roll out all at once, so I added people I hung out with and worked with on my personal account, then had to re-do it again when my work account happened. And people were randomly adding me on whichever one they found first. I don’t think Google Plus got this right at all, and it feels like federation is making a lot of the similar mistakes to Google Plus.

specialist 1y ago
IMHO: profiles (personas, aliases, alts) are orthogonal to federation. I once thought personas were critically important. Something like Platform for Privacy Preferences (P3P). But 1) I wasn't smart enough to figure out how to prevent deanonymonization and 2) USA govt didn't protect our privacy, so there is no market for a privacy preserving stack.
pjc50 1y ago
Keeping the accounts separate seems like an extremely mandatory feature to me. If I had multiple Google accounts I would absolutely not want any information leakage from one to the other.

echelon 1y ago

Just give me P2P social media and put me in the swarm. BitTorrent for Reddit and Twitter. It shouldn't matter what servers are anywhere. It should all be eventually consistent for some agglomerated cluster sampling of the world. Make the content immutable and ephemeral. People that care to archive it will. Federation is silly and is part of the problem. Plus it creates more little fiefdoms. I'll subscribe to my own filters if I care, and my agent will handle the rest.

kemotep 1y ago
Well you can run your own ActivityPub Server/Client and subscribe (and thus federate) with anyone who hasn’t explicitly blocked you from federating with them. Bridge that with AT and you can see and interact with whatever you want on the Fediverse.
alisonatwork 1y ago
I don't think this approach will work for most people. Assuming the Bluesky firehose is 50GB/day, that's a massive amount of data to have to download just to filter for the handful of events a person might actually be interested in. My phone barely goes through a couple GB per month! But perhaps for efficiency I should rent a server to do the filtering on the cloud and then sync it down to my phone? Well then why not instead consume from a server which already did most of the filtering that I wanted? And now we get back to something like usenet, or the modern day fediverse.
- tough 1y ago
  how i would make it work is you'd only download actual bits you care about, the rest can be handled by indexers you pay for to help you sort it out
  - alisonatwork 1y ago
    I guess this is when it gets fuzzy. A true peer-to-peer social network would mean that every node has to be able to get everything and also be able to share whatever it has with every other node. If every participant on this kind of social network was required to maintain their own "seedbox", then it implicitly limits access to only people with means. But if there were hubs funded by groups of interested people that allowed those folks to share the cost of "seeding" and in return only "leech" the information they care about... then isn't that essentially the same kind of decentralization that already exists on the fediverse? The way I understand it, instances are set up by communities of people with similar interests and those instances are configured to only propagate a subset of the events that their community is interested in.

bigyabai 1y ago

> Even within Mastodon it’s a mess with all the various servers. It’s too confusing. That's news to me, as a Mastodon user. I just scroll my homeserver's default feed and get stuff from all over the internet.

dingnuts 1y ago
no, you get the subset your homeserver administrator decides to rehost
- bigyabai 1y ago
  Which in my case, includes stuff from all over the internet. I don't think anyone's feed includes everything from the internet.
  - righthand 1y ago
    To add: not even a centralized service includes everything from the internet.
- thejohnconway 1y ago
  I don't think that's a good way of stating it. You get the posts from the people anyone on your server follows. An admin can block or silence accounts, or run a relay, but these are edge cases.
  - ekianjo 1y ago
    An admin can decide to unfollow a bunch of instances and as a user you have no recourse.
    - egypturnash 1y ago
      you can say "hey could you refollow those instances" you could throw more money into the instance's tip jar to make it easier for them to decide to rehost a larger part of the data firehose - that may not be the entire reason they defederated from an instance but it may be part of it you could move to another instance whose admin's choices are more in line with yours

3RTB297 1y ago

I just commented above, but it's really more like being a student at a university. You can enter all the buildings with your student ID. You can be friends with people in other dorms and enter the building. Even though you're an engineering student you can take classes in the economics or theater or applied science schools. Though, IMO Mastodon not the better of the fediverse platforms, but I don't love microblogging social media. But it's all going to end up being like Linux. Some people tried it once, didn't like it, and then 10 years from now it'll be totally different and everyone will wonder where it's been all their lives.