6 ms·

The problem is scams which is a solvable problem. Eliminate the scams and AI can’t be scammed. It’s been done. See Singapore. Basically if you’re a scammer an

The problem is scams which is a solvable problem. Eliminate the scams and AI can’t be scammed. It’s been done. See Singapore. Basically if you’re a scammer and you’re caught, death penalty or public whipping. That eliminates scammers real quick.

mmmllm 1y ago
Is Singapore flying to other countries to arrest them there too? /s
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  Nope but it's fixed within singapore.
- npteljes 1y ago
  They cooperate with international and other local forces, as any police do. But, they haven't eliminated scams, as OP claimed, that's complete bull.
  - ninetyninenine 1y ago
    I should preface it with, practically eliminated scams. Meaning eliminated to an extent that is maximally practically possible.
    - npteljes 1y ago
      Even that is false. There are many more countries with fewer scams per capita, and with fewer amount lost at scams per capita. Meaning, Singapore falls behind other countries in elimination of scams. See page 9 here for details: https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b04d1924b.pdf https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b0...
      - ninetyninenine 1y ago
        Again stop showing me false bs statistics. Those are scams that are reported in Singapore. You need scams originating from Singapore. Those numbers are lower.
npteljes 1y ago
It has not been done in Singapore. Scams are continuing issue for them, like the rest of the world. See this Singaporean police resource regarding scamming in 2024: https://www.police.gov.sg/-/media/Spf/Media-Room/Statistics/Annual-Scams-and-Cybercrime-Brief-2024/Annual-Scams-and-Cybercrime-Brief-2024.ashx https://www.police.gov.sg/-/media/Spf/Media-Room/Statistics/...
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  These numbers are global. You need to get numbers where the criminal is within the borders of Singapore.
  - npteljes 1y ago
    Here's an article where they focus on just one type of scam, increasing in number, where migrant workers are exploited by loan sharks, on Singapore soil. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/maids-lost-at-least-800k-to-scams-in-2023-victims-educate-others-at-lucky-plaza-far-east-plaza https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/maids-lost-at-least-8... All which is to say: Singapore hasn't "solved scams" as a problem. Furthermore, I also claim that scams are not a solvable problem.
    - ninetyninenine 1y ago
      By solved I mean practically solved. Meaning solved to the maximum extent that it can be solved.
      - npteljes 1y ago
        Even with the amendment, it's false. If you look at the "The Global State of Scams - 2021" report by ScamAdvisor, page 9 has a country table. Singapore saw 2.5 for 1000 people of what SA would classify as "scams", on the level of Austria, Belgium. Switzerland, Taiwan, Poland and many others face much fewer scams per capita. Looking at amount lost per capita, Singapore is pretty high, with many European folk losing much less money on scams, while enjoying living in a much less tightly controlled environment, to be generous. https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b04d1924b.pdf https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b0...
tsimionescu 1y ago
First of all, medieval style punishments is not an acceptable answer. Scamming someone doesn't rise anywhere near the level of offense that should forfeit your human rights. The people who made this law and those who actually carry out the punishments are far more deserving of the death penalty than the vast majority of scammers. Now, even disregarding this obvious violation of human rights, from even a purely amoral perspective this is a bad take. "other countries should stop their own criminality" is simply not an actionable insight. And there are far worse, more universally despised, and easy to prosecute crimes (such as pedophilia) that even functioning rich countries have completely failed to stop.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  >First of all, medieval style punishments is not an acceptable answer. Why? just because you put your foot down it's not acceptable? Think about it from another perspective. Think in terms of effectiveness rather than compassion. If compassion results in shit holes like SF, while strict punishment results in singapore. You can't argue with results. Like I get your argument. Everyone gets it. Solutions cannot however just be about compassion. You need to consider compassion and effectiveness in tandem. If pedophilia resulted in torture and the death penalty, I assure you, it will be reduced by a significant amount. You're much more likely to support this. In fact, I would argue that you have little compassion for the pedophile over the scammer. It's not as if human morality is clear cut and rational. It's irrational, and lack of compassion is applied more to the pedophile who himself can't help his condition. Additionally there are cases of pedophilia where the victim and the perpetrator eventually got married. So really just relying on compassion alone isn't going to cut it. You need to see effectiveness, and know when to apply medieval punishments. Because in all seriousness Singapore is a really great city; you can't deny that and you can't deny what it took for it to become that way.
  - tsimionescu 1y ago
    No, effectiveness is not an excuse for immoral, disproportionate punishments. And morality is not nearly as irrational or difficult as you make it out to be. The victims of a scammer are not nearly as badly hurt as the victims of a pedophile. And since both crimes are perpetrated by knowing adults, there's no "they couldn't help it" compassion for the victims (note that it's not illegal to have pedophilic tendencies - it's illegal to hurt children by acting on those tendencies). So, the moral calculus is simple: same internal culpability for the perpetrator, but different levels of damage to the victims results in different levels of moral culpability. And even for such heinous crimes, the death penalty is not acceptable, nor is corporal punishment. There is still value in a human life beyond such crimes. In addition, there is always the problem of applying major punishments to people who are actually innocent - which is a far more common occurence than proponents of such punishments typically admit. How happy would you be to be killed because you got confused for a scammer? Not to mention, the deterrence effect is vastly overstated - there is little evidence of a significant difference in rates of major crime depending on the level of punishment, beyond some relatively basic level. Actual success rates of enforcement are a much more powerful predictor of crime rates. You can have the worse possible punishments, but if almost no one gets convicted, criminals will keep doing it hoping they won't personally get caught.

mmmllm 1y ago

Is Singapore flying to other countries to arrest them there too? /s

ninetyninenine 1y ago
Nope but it's fixed within singapore.
npteljes 1y ago
They cooperate with international and other local forces, as any police do. But, they haven't eliminated scams, as OP claimed, that's complete bull.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  I should preface it with, practically eliminated scams. Meaning eliminated to an extent that is maximally practically possible.
  - npteljes 1y ago
    Even that is false. There are many more countries with fewer scams per capita, and with fewer amount lost at scams per capita. Meaning, Singapore falls behind other countries in elimination of scams. See page 9 here for details: https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b04d1924b.pdf https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b0...
    - ninetyninenine 1y ago
      Again stop showing me false bs statistics. Those are scams that are reported in Singapore. You need scams originating from Singapore. Those numbers are lower.

npteljes 1y ago

It has not been done in Singapore. Scams are continuing issue for them, like the rest of the world. See this Singaporean police resource regarding scamming in 2024: https://www.police.gov.sg/-/media/Spf/Media-Room/Statistics/Annual-Scams-and-Cybercrime-Brief-2024/Annual-Scams-and-Cybercrime-Brief-2024.ashx https://www.police.gov.sg/-/media/Spf/Media-Room/Statistics/...

ninetyninenine 1y ago
These numbers are global. You need to get numbers where the criminal is within the borders of Singapore.
- npteljes 1y ago
  Here's an article where they focus on just one type of scam, increasing in number, where migrant workers are exploited by loan sharks, on Singapore soil. https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/maids-lost-at-least-800k-to-scams-in-2023-victims-educate-others-at-lucky-plaza-far-east-plaza https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/maids-lost-at-least-8... All which is to say: Singapore hasn't "solved scams" as a problem. Furthermore, I also claim that scams are not a solvable problem.
  - ninetyninenine 1y ago
    By solved I mean practically solved. Meaning solved to the maximum extent that it can be solved.
    - npteljes 1y ago
      Even with the amendment, it's false. If you look at the "The Global State of Scams - 2021" report by ScamAdvisor, page 9 has a country table. Singapore saw 2.5 for 1000 people of what SA would classify as "scams", on the level of Austria, Belgium. Switzerland, Taiwan, Poland and many others face much fewer scams per capita. Looking at amount lost per capita, Singapore is pretty high, with many European folk losing much less money on scams, while enjoying living in a much less tightly controlled environment, to be generous. https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b04d1924b.pdf https://cdn.newswire.com/files/x/71/6f/93551958ddf942fb585b0...

tsimionescu 1y ago

First of all, medieval style punishments is not an acceptable answer. Scamming someone doesn't rise anywhere near the level of offense that should forfeit your human rights. The people who made this law and those who actually carry out the punishments are far more deserving of the death penalty than the vast majority of scammers. Now, even disregarding this obvious violation of human rights, from even a purely amoral perspective this is a bad take. "other countries should stop their own criminality" is simply not an actionable insight. And there are far worse, more universally despised, and easy to prosecute crimes (such as pedophilia) that even functioning rich countries have completely failed to stop.

ninetyninenine 1y ago
>First of all, medieval style punishments is not an acceptable answer. Why? just because you put your foot down it's not acceptable? Think about it from another perspective. Think in terms of effectiveness rather than compassion. If compassion results in shit holes like SF, while strict punishment results in singapore. You can't argue with results. Like I get your argument. Everyone gets it. Solutions cannot however just be about compassion. You need to consider compassion and effectiveness in tandem. If pedophilia resulted in torture and the death penalty, I assure you, it will be reduced by a significant amount. You're much more likely to support this. In fact, I would argue that you have little compassion for the pedophile over the scammer. It's not as if human morality is clear cut and rational. It's irrational, and lack of compassion is applied more to the pedophile who himself can't help his condition. Additionally there are cases of pedophilia where the victim and the perpetrator eventually got married. So really just relying on compassion alone isn't going to cut it. You need to see effectiveness, and know when to apply medieval punishments. Because in all seriousness Singapore is a really great city; you can't deny that and you can't deny what it took for it to become that way.
- tsimionescu 1y ago
  No, effectiveness is not an excuse for immoral, disproportionate punishments. And morality is not nearly as irrational or difficult as you make it out to be. The victims of a scammer are not nearly as badly hurt as the victims of a pedophile. And since both crimes are perpetrated by knowing adults, there's no "they couldn't help it" compassion for the victims (note that it's not illegal to have pedophilic tendencies - it's illegal to hurt children by acting on those tendencies). So, the moral calculus is simple: same internal culpability for the perpetrator, but different levels of damage to the victims results in different levels of moral culpability. And even for such heinous crimes, the death penalty is not acceptable, nor is corporal punishment. There is still value in a human life beyond such crimes. In addition, there is always the problem of applying major punishments to people who are actually innocent - which is a far more common occurence than proponents of such punishments typically admit. How happy would you be to be killed because you got confused for a scammer? Not to mention, the deterrence effect is vastly overstated - there is little evidence of a significant difference in rates of major crime depending on the level of punishment, beyond some relatively basic level. Actual success rates of enforcement are a much more powerful predictor of crime rates. You can have the worse possible punishments, but if almost no one gets convicted, criminals will keep doing it hoping they won't personally get caught.