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> > But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. And app

> > But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. And apps should no longer have to use first party payment rails, first party authentication/sign in rails, or be forced to jump through review or upgrade hoops.

c0balt 1y ago
> The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. I'm not too sure about that, for non-technical users the warnings before installing an APK on Android are very likely a good thing. There's a lot of malware out there and, similar to running a downloaded Exe on Windows, you should at least explicitly confirm it's execution.
- nchmy 1y ago
  The warnings arent needed on the web, because it's vastly more secure, flexible, etc.. Steve Jobs even coined the PWA concept before going the fiefdom route
labcomputer 1y ago
I don’t know whether to feel happy or sad for you. Happy because you have nobody in your life in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage of the inevitable malware that will be installed on their device as a result of your wish. Or sad because those people are most likely to be grandparents or elderly aunts and uncles. Perhaps you never even got to know them.
- tekkk 1y ago
  What a stupid argument. Maybe grandpas and grandmas should get a different phone then, like a Doro, and stop bringing the rest of us down. And it doesn't even hold water as my mother has been scammed by legitimate App Store apps that have charged extra-fees just because they could.
  - labcomputer 1y ago
    Or maybe the iPhone should be that phone and those who don’t like the closed ecosystem should get something else? Why would buy a phone that doesn’t work the way you like when alternatives exist?
    - matheusmoreira 1y ago
      Because we want the iPhone on our terms.
      - jen20 1y ago
        So? I want it on my terms, which are mutually exclusive to yours. Who wins?
        echelon 1y ago
        You can choose not to download anything. We're asking to rewire the economics and regulatory framework, not change how you personally use your phone. I don't care how you use your phone. I care how the world works.
        jen20 1y ago
        What you are proposing is the balkanization of software delivery. I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass.
        echelon 1y ago
        "Balkanization" is the wrong way to view this. This is waking up the regulatory arm of the government that has been asleep at the wheel. And it should have been done over a decade ago. The better analogy is a forest fire. We're clearing up the overgrowth (ossification, unfair taxation, and unfair control) and creating room for new life to start and flourish. > I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass. Don't like a negative externality? Tax and regulate it. It's what Europe does. And it's what we're good at doing in every industry except for the software industry. We need to stretch those muscles and get back into the habit of doing it. We should pass regulations on giant social media companies as well. But in a world where we have no software freedoms and where certain software tracks us, having software freedoms is the more important cause and it's where we must start our battle. You don't need to use Facebook, but you need to use a smartphone. New social media apps are started all the time (TikTok, Tea, etc.) but smartphones are trillion dollar moats. Our smartphones are our gateway to digital life. They need to be liberated from Apple and Google. Mobile computing belongs to all of us.
- tliltocatl 1y ago
  Yet another "think of the children", except now it's think of the elderly. We CAN NOT make the world safe for everyone without also making it a total crapsack for everyone. It's simply not an option that exists.

c0balt 1y ago

> The web. Without scare walls or hidden "enable downloads" menu settings. I'm not too sure about that, for non-technical users the warnings before installing an APK on Android are very likely a good thing. There's a lot of malware out there and, similar to running a downloaded Exe on Windows, you should at least explicitly confirm it's execution.

nchmy 1y ago
The warnings arent needed on the web, because it's vastly more secure, flexible, etc.. Steve Jobs even coined the PWA concept before going the fiefdom route

labcomputer 1y ago

I don’t know whether to feel happy or sad for you. Happy because you have nobody in your life in a vulnerable position to be taken advantage of the inevitable malware that will be installed on their device as a result of your wish. Or sad because those people are most likely to be grandparents or elderly aunts and uncles. Perhaps you never even got to know them.

tekkk 1y ago
What a stupid argument. Maybe grandpas and grandmas should get a different phone then, like a Doro, and stop bringing the rest of us down. And it doesn't even hold water as my mother has been scammed by legitimate App Store apps that have charged extra-fees just because they could.
- labcomputer 1y ago
  Or maybe the iPhone should be that phone and those who don’t like the closed ecosystem should get something else? Why would buy a phone that doesn’t work the way you like when alternatives exist?
  - matheusmoreira 1y ago
    Because we want the iPhone on our terms.
    - jen20 1y ago
      So? I want it on my terms, which are mutually exclusive to yours. Who wins?
      - echelon 1y ago
        You can choose not to download anything. We're asking to rewire the economics and regulatory framework, not change how you personally use your phone. I don't care how you use your phone. I care how the world works.
        jen20 1y ago
        What you are proposing is the balkanization of software delivery. I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass.
        echelon 1y ago
        "Balkanization" is the wrong way to view this. This is waking up the regulatory arm of the government that has been asleep at the wheel. And it should have been done over a decade ago. The better analogy is a forest fire. We're clearing up the overgrowth (ossification, unfair taxation, and unfair control) and creating room for new life to start and flourish. > I indeed choose not to download software from Facebook and friends, but it’s quite likely others will need to as it will become the only way to get their software. At that point: tracking out the ass. Don't like a negative externality? Tax and regulate it. It's what Europe does. And it's what we're good at doing in every industry except for the software industry. We need to stretch those muscles and get back into the habit of doing it. We should pass regulations on giant social media companies as well. But in a world where we have no software freedoms and where certain software tracks us, having software freedoms is the more important cause and it's where we must start our battle. You don't need to use Facebook, but you need to use a smartphone. New social media apps are started all the time (TikTok, Tea, etc.) but smartphones are trillion dollar moats. Our smartphones are our gateway to digital life. They need to be liberated from Apple and Google. Mobile computing belongs to all of us.
tliltocatl 1y ago
Yet another "think of the children", except now it's think of the elderly. We CAN NOT make the world safe for everyone without also making it a total crapsack for everyone. It's simply not an option that exists.