6 ms·

The last time my wife's laptop died, I convinced her to give a Linux laptop from System76 a try. Then, when her store's Windows box died, I convinced her (and

The last time my wife's laptop died, I convinced her to give a Linux laptop from System76 a try. Then, when her store's Windows box died, I convinced her (and her business partner) to give Linux a try there. My daughter, 20, has a Linux laptop as well (although in order to get Adobe Creative Suite for school she still has to own a Windows desktop, thanks Adobe). None of these people were interested in software freedom, so their patience for problems during the switch was pretty minimal, and they all switched, and stayed switched. If you buy something like System76 that has Linux pre-installed, and help out with something like Spotify that is possible to install on Linux but not completely trivial, it is not so difficult to convince people anymore.

beeflet 1y ago
what's wrong with the web app
- LPisGood 1y ago
  In my experience web apps are almost always worse than native apps unless the native app is just a wrapper around a web app.
  - mathiaspoint 1y ago
    The native Spotify app is just a wrapper around the web app though.
    - sneak 1y ago
      This is decidedly untrue.
    - bigstrat2003 1y ago
      Even for apps where that is true, sometimes the wrapper adds some features that it doesn't have running in a browser tab. For example, the Discord electron app can get hotkeys when it's not focused (useful for push to talk/mute when playing a game), but not when you run it in a browser.
    - lproven 1y ago
      > a wrapper around the web app All Electron apps are.
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    It is generally true regarding the intent of the platform owner (the app is supposed to be better, they'll put efforts into it). The funny part being, you might still want the web version to apply extensions on it. Youtube for instance is a lot better with the auto-dub features and title translations off, but it won't be possible in the native app as Google is actively forcing those on us. I don't use Spotify, but would advise looking it it.
    - umbra07 1y ago
      Spicetify offers a much better experience than web+extensions. And of course, you can use alternate, lightweight clients based on 'librespot' instead.
- estimator7292 1y ago
  It locks out a bunch of features
- olyjohn 1y ago
  It doesn't show up as a separate task. I have to go to Firefox and find the window. It's not as easy as an alt-tab and gets lost in all my other web apps that are in my browser.
  - blibble 1y ago
    Chrome+Firefox support pulling tabs out as individual apps, with a separate window icon + launcher well, Firefox did, until Mozilla (of course) removed it Chrome still supports it
  - makeitdouble 1y ago
    Secunding blibble's comment, the wrapper mode works fine in Chrome, and links will open in the standard Chrome instance so there is little downsides UX wise. Extensions aren't as accessible if you use them a lot, and of course you're stuck with Chrome though.
- rossdavidh 1y ago
  to be honest I don't know, I don't use Spotify much, but apparently for my wife it was a dealbreaker so I gritted my teeth and dived in, but then as I recall it was actually not hard to install at all. HOWEVER, IIRC, it involved typing something into a terminal¸ and for a lot of people that is also a complete dealbreaker for whatever reason.
  - asoneth 1y ago
    > for a lot of people that is also a complete dealbreaker for whatever reason Seems like a perfectly reasonable dealbreaker to me. Terminal commands are a raw UI that is neither intuitive nor discoverable -- someone must either read documentation (man pages, tutorials, blog posts, etc) to learn the behavior and syntax or they must blindly copy strings from a trusted source. There's a reason most stories of nontechnical people using software like Linux always seem to include an expert friend, family member, or IT person in the background.
    - rossdavidh 1y ago
      You're not wrong, but in this case I believe all I had to do was copy the line of text and paste it into a terminal (it's a while ago so I might be misremembering). But, given that is what people are doing, it does raise the question of whether requiring them to copy and paste is actually any more secure than allowing click-to-install...
      - asoneth 1y ago
        > whether requiring them to copy and paste is actually any more secure than allowing click-to-install... Agreed. If your operating system requires that you occasionally search for instructions and copy-and-paste executable strings from the internet, that seems less efficient, less learnable, and less secure than any GUI I know of. Perhaps at some point terminals will bake in an LLM as an intermediary to convert between human-readable instructions and terminal commands, and then we just have to worry about the alignment of those LLMs...
godelski 1y ago
I want to second this point, but from a different experience. I'm definitely a linux "evangelist", in that I've convinced a lot of friends to switch over. But the biggest thing that's enabled me to convince people to give linux a try is... linux has changed. Linux is just much easier to use than it was a decade ago. Much simpler than ever 5 years ago. A decade ago I'd have to fret over updating a nvidia driver and wonder if I'm going to spend a few hours or more recovering my display. God, there were so many pains. They helped me learn a lot and helped me gain mastery, but that's not for everyone. But now, projects like SteamOS, System76, EndeavourOS, Manjaro, PopOS, and others have really moved the space in usability. Things have just changed. There's more effort than ever being put into linux and with that comes a lot of people willing to put effort into design. I think it is easy to lose sight of design when resources are scarce, but it is also important for drawing people into the cause. Now the biggest problem of getting people to switch is actually with the nerdy/techy friends. They have heard too much about how linux is difficult and all that stuff. They are judging by the state of where things were than where things are now. Whereas for the most part a normal person switching to linux will have a similar experience as if they were switching from Windows to Mac or vise versa. There's pain points and a lot of "why is this here and not there" stuff, but things are very doable. But this initial learning curve can also put many people off (just like switching between Windows and Mac or Android and iPhone). But it is harder to make that transition when you have confirmation bias on your side.
- pentagrama 1y ago
  > linux has changed Windows has changed too, their bad practices are increasing and the public perception is suffering by that.
  - godelski 1y ago
    Agreed. This has also made it easier to get people to switch. This Windows 11 stuff has been great for Linux adoption
  - madphilosopher 1y ago
    I read a comment on a forum recently that I'll just leave here: "Windows 11 is a hate crime."
cam_l 1y ago
I recently took the opportunity to get my 80 yr old mother to try out Popos after her old X200 finally stated glitching (and could not update to win 11). She has been using windows since 3.1 days (and dos before that), but recently has been having so many issues with windows changing interfaces and dark patterns. The cognitive load has gotten all too much, and with so many of her friends being scammed online, her and her group are now scared of using computers. Anyway, Popos is a breath of fresh air for her. The interface is predictable and constant, nothing pesters for her attention, and background stuff stays in the background. She can just use it when she wants for what she wants and it doesn't need constant attention and learning.

beeflet 1y ago

what's wrong with the web app

LPisGood 1y ago
In my experience web apps are almost always worse than native apps unless the native app is just a wrapper around a web app.
- mathiaspoint 1y ago
  The native Spotify app is just a wrapper around the web app though.
  - sneak 1y ago
    This is decidedly untrue.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    Even for apps where that is true, sometimes the wrapper adds some features that it doesn't have running in a browser tab. For example, the Discord electron app can get hotkeys when it's not focused (useful for push to talk/mute when playing a game), but not when you run it in a browser.
  - lproven 1y ago
    > a wrapper around the web app All Electron apps are.
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  It is generally true regarding the intent of the platform owner (the app is supposed to be better, they'll put efforts into it). The funny part being, you might still want the web version to apply extensions on it. Youtube for instance is a lot better with the auto-dub features and title translations off, but it won't be possible in the native app as Google is actively forcing those on us. I don't use Spotify, but would advise looking it it.
  - umbra07 1y ago
    Spicetify offers a much better experience than web+extensions. And of course, you can use alternate, lightweight clients based on 'librespot' instead.
estimator7292 1y ago
It locks out a bunch of features
olyjohn 1y ago
It doesn't show up as a separate task. I have to go to Firefox and find the window. It's not as easy as an alt-tab and gets lost in all my other web apps that are in my browser.
- blibble 1y ago
  Chrome+Firefox support pulling tabs out as individual apps, with a separate window icon + launcher well, Firefox did, until Mozilla (of course) removed it Chrome still supports it
- makeitdouble 1y ago
  Secunding blibble's comment, the wrapper mode works fine in Chrome, and links will open in the standard Chrome instance so there is little downsides UX wise. Extensions aren't as accessible if you use them a lot, and of course you're stuck with Chrome though.
rossdavidh 1y ago
to be honest I don't know, I don't use Spotify much, but apparently for my wife it was a dealbreaker so I gritted my teeth and dived in, but then as I recall it was actually not hard to install at all. HOWEVER, IIRC, it involved typing something into a terminal¸ and for a lot of people that is also a complete dealbreaker for whatever reason.
- asoneth 1y ago
  > for a lot of people that is also a complete dealbreaker for whatever reason Seems like a perfectly reasonable dealbreaker to me. Terminal commands are a raw UI that is neither intuitive nor discoverable -- someone must either read documentation (man pages, tutorials, blog posts, etc) to learn the behavior and syntax or they must blindly copy strings from a trusted source. There's a reason most stories of nontechnical people using software like Linux always seem to include an expert friend, family member, or IT person in the background.
  - rossdavidh 1y ago
    You're not wrong, but in this case I believe all I had to do was copy the line of text and paste it into a terminal (it's a while ago so I might be misremembering). But, given that is what people are doing, it does raise the question of whether requiring them to copy and paste is actually any more secure than allowing click-to-install...
    - asoneth 1y ago
      > whether requiring them to copy and paste is actually any more secure than allowing click-to-install... Agreed. If your operating system requires that you occasionally search for instructions and copy-and-paste executable strings from the internet, that seems less efficient, less learnable, and less secure than any GUI I know of. Perhaps at some point terminals will bake in an LLM as an intermediary to convert between human-readable instructions and terminal commands, and then we just have to worry about the alignment of those LLMs...

godelski 1y ago

I want to second this point, but from a different experience. I'm definitely a linux "evangelist", in that I've convinced a lot of friends to switch over. But the biggest thing that's enabled me to convince people to give linux a try is... linux has changed. Linux is just much easier to use than it was a decade ago. Much simpler than ever 5 years ago. A decade ago I'd have to fret over updating a nvidia driver and wonder if I'm going to spend a few hours or more recovering my display. God, there were so many pains. They helped me learn a lot and helped me gain mastery, but that's not for everyone. But now, projects like SteamOS, System76, EndeavourOS, Manjaro, PopOS, and others have really moved the space in usability. Things have just changed. There's more effort than ever being put into linux and with that comes a lot of people willing to put effort into design. I think it is easy to lose sight of design when resources are scarce, but it is also important for drawing people into the cause. Now the biggest problem of getting people to switch is actually with the nerdy/techy friends. They have heard too much about how linux is difficult and all that stuff. They are judging by the state of where things were than where things are now. Whereas for the most part a normal person switching to linux will have a similar experience as if they were switching from Windows to Mac or vise versa. There's pain points and a lot of "why is this here and not there" stuff, but things are very doable. But this initial learning curve can also put many people off (just like switching between Windows and Mac or Android and iPhone). But it is harder to make that transition when you have confirmation bias on your side.

pentagrama 1y ago
> linux has changed Windows has changed too, their bad practices are increasing and the public perception is suffering by that.
- godelski 1y ago
  Agreed. This has also made it easier to get people to switch. This Windows 11 stuff has been great for Linux adoption
- madphilosopher 1y ago
  I read a comment on a forum recently that I'll just leave here: "Windows 11 is a hate crime."

cam_l 1y ago

I recently took the opportunity to get my 80 yr old mother to try out Popos after her old X200 finally stated glitching (and could not update to win 11). She has been using windows since 3.1 days (and dos before that), but recently has been having so many issues with windows changing interfaces and dark patterns. The cognitive load has gotten all too much, and with so many of her friends being scammed online, her and her group are now scared of using computers. Anyway, Popos is a breath of fresh air for her. The interface is predictable and constant, nothing pesters for her attention, and background stuff stays in the background. She can just use it when she wants for what she wants and it doesn't need constant attention and learning.