3 ms·
The sibling comment by theptip explains this well for this specific case, but the other sibling comment still seems confused, so I will explain more broadly: pr
by owenversteeg 1y ago
The sibling comment by theptip explains this well for this specific case, but the other sibling comment still seems confused, so I will explain more broadly: productive uses of heat are all about the temperature. The boundaries vary, but "high-grade" heat is roughly 300-500C, medium-grade is 100-300C, and low-grade <100C. Up to a certain point [0], heat is easier to use the hotter it is.
High-grade heat can be easily turned into electricity with a turbine, or reused in an industrial process (the entire point of a nuclear reactor is to create heat in this temperature range!) Medium-grade heat can still be used for some processes or used to generate electricity, but the electricity generation will be less efficient. Low-grade heat is under 100C and is a lot harder to use. You cannot economically generate electricity from it, or use it for most industrial processes, so use cases often focus on district heating.
The problem with these low-grade-heat district heating schemes, or more broadly any use of low-grade heat, is the economics. Let's take your idea. The efficiency from sunlight to heat is indeed high (much higher than PV panel -> resistive element) but the heat generated is all low-grade heat.
So what's the root cause here, why is low grade heat usually not economic to use? It comes back to two main causes: 1) efficiency, and 2) storage. Most power is generated from turbines that use heat - a type of heat engine. Carnot efficiency is the maximum theoretical efficiency of a heat engine. Carnot efficiency is η = 1 – Tcold/Thot where temperatures are absolute temperatures (Kelvin/Rankine.) In other words, 7.7% for 50C->25C (298K->323K), 37% for 200C->25C, and 61% for 500C->25C. Note that this is _theoretical_ maximum efficiency; real world efficiency varies quite a bit - from ~1/2 to ~1/10th of Carnot efficiency at peak depending on your heat engine. The second, storage costs, are even more important. You need to insulate your warm object to keep it warm, and if your heat is low-grade, then it is spread out across a huge volume.
Back to your idea, your "paint the dirt black" idea will generate far more heat, but very low-grade and entirely non-economic to use. You will have a somewhat warm pile of dirt, but nobody really wants a somewhat warm pile of dirt. This is the same reason why you see people, logically, tearing down their high-efficiency solar water heaters to install low-efficiency solar panels.
"Use solar panels to resistively heat the dirt", on the other hand, is less efficient and generates far less heat - but it generates high-grade heat. This startup proposes to eventually sell that heat to power plants, to generate electricity directly; and if you're doing that, the temperature of the heat is critical. As you can see from the Carnot efficiency, a power plant couldn't economically do anything with a warm pile of dirt, a solar water heater, or other similar technologies. But they _can_ do something with a source of high-grade heat - namely, they can run the turbines that currently run on fossil fuels. In other words, you can solve the seasonal solar curve problem and have constant electricity production year-round, even in northerly climes.
[0] Above - very roughly - 500C, it is harder to use the waste heat efficiently, because the engineering gets a lot harder, but the theoretical maximum efficiency is higher. That's one reason why there are a lot of efforts to try to build nuclear reactors working at these higher temperatures (see: molten salt reactors.)
- simne 1y agoExcellent explanation. I could add, typical Thermal Electric Station (Gas or Coal) could have significantly larger working temperature than Nuclear, because more strict safety measures for Nuclear on nearly same level technologies. For example, Nuc typically don't cross 400C, when Gas/Coal could work on 450C or even more. Plus, non-Nuc could use some more exotic technologies, like MHD (magnetohydrodynamic) generator, to provide much more efficiency of power generation, or CO2 turbine to make installation much smaller. (Theoretically, somebody could build Nuclear MHD device, but it will not pass safety restrictions).
- owenversteeg 1y agoSomething I forgot to mention - because of the low temperatures involved, district heating people love to talk about the potential use of low-grade heat, but the overwhelming majority of district heating is sourced from high-grade heat. By far the largest installation of district heating is across the former USSR, where the source is mostly nuclear. The USSR used nuclear not for want of industrial processes or black paint, but because the engineering involved is far more practical when you start with high grade heat. From an old report on Soviet district heating: at -23C, buildings were supplied with water around 80C and returned it around 57C. That may sound like it is within the ballpark of low-grade heat, but it required a plant sendout temperature in excess of 150C to get that 80C building supply. And, of course, your heat source has to be higher than your plant sendout temp... and now you're at fairly high temperatures. At that point, you might as well build a nuclear combined heat and power plant for maximum efficiency, which is in fact what the Soviets did. If you want to do practical district heating, you should look to the Soviets. Unfortunately, most of this information is available in Russian, on physical paper. [0] http://waterworkshistory.us/DH/1967USSRreport.pdf http://waterworkshistory.us/DH/1967USSRreport.pdf page 18, figure 2
- te0006 1y agoAnother country with highly developed district heating system is Denmark. They heavily invested in this technology since the 1970s, and currently around 2/3 of all households have district heating, in the capital, Copenhagen, 98%. Moreover, more than 60% of the energy used for these systems comes from renewables. No nuclear power involved (which hast been banned in the country since 1985). A few sources: - https://dbdh.org/all-about-district-energy/district-heating-in-denmark/ https://dbdh.org/all-about-district-energy/district-heating-... - https://stateofgreen.com/en/news/new-plans-to-expand-the-danish-district-heating-network/#:~:text=Fact%20box%20*%20The%20Danish%20district%20heating,biogas%2C%20solar%20heating%2C%20geothermal%20energy%2C%20and%20electricity https://stateofgreen.com/en/news/new-plans-to-expand-the-dan... - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032122000466 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S136403212...