6 ms·

That’s really high. There’s either a big problem in your city, or they are making generous estimates to justify asking for more capital. 10-15% is more typical.

That’s really high. There’s either a big problem in your city, or they are making generous estimates to justify asking for more capital. 10-15% is more typical. In my region, the street trees are usually getting sewer water. Residential service in older houses are usually clay pipes with lead solder that the tree infiltrates. It’s not a problem until the clay pops and roots clog it. It varies a lot by region and jurisdiction. One of the cities near me made the mistake of using riveted pipe from rolled steel to save money 75 years ago, and regularly has catastrophic main breaks as the rivets aren’t as robust as a regular pipe.

mlinhares 1y ago
TIL clay pipes are a thing but it does make a lot of sense there would be.
- close04 1y ago
  These are probably the longest lasting option we have right now, and is far more eco-friendly than the closest alternatives, plastics or concrete.
mschuster91 1y ago
Here in Germany, we estimate sewer infrastructure to last anywhere from 50-100 years, and water mains around 50-ish years. After that, it needs replacement or, that's the modern thing but it's a one-trick pony, re-lining. The prudent thing would be to set aside and invest a tiny bit of money every year to fund a replacement, but unfortunately modern economic theory ("run lean") and manufactured income crises (aka, politicians going for lower taxes and utility rates) have led to a lot of infrastructure being utterly dilapidated and no savings left, and now we need to invest untold billions of euros raised from debt to keep it running. Unfortunately, a lot of the deciders are already dead, and for those that still live, it's fallen out of favor to hold them accountable.
- bluGill 1y ago
  Smart is to have a crew that replaces a little every year. That way they build expertise in how to do it and there isn't a large expense all at once. You can likely get a discount with private plumbers because you want it done sometime and so they schedlue around other customers who want it now.
  - estimator7292 1y ago
    That doesn't track because the real cost to replacing underground infrastructure is not the digging, materials, or labor. We avoid such maintenance as long as possible because shutting down a road is usually very expensive in terms of second-order effects. Digging up a pipe and replacing it is actually pretty cheap and easy. Disrupting a main thoroughfare is incredibly expensive in terms of lost productivity, transport, shipping.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      there are enough roads in any city as to rebuild a few every year. Pipes don't last as long as pavement in general.
      - gnabgib 1y ago
        Pipes have lifetimes of 2-10x roads... where's your data from? Roads[0]: Asphalt (18 years), Concrete (25 years) - requires good expansion gaps, good substrate, zero roadwork over its lifetime. Pipes[1]: HPDE (50-100 years), PVC (50-70 years), Reinforced Concrete (75-100 years) Vitrified Clay Pipes (Several centuries), Galvanised Steel (40-70 years) [0]: https://www.ayresassociates.com/the-long-and-short-of-it-lifespans-of-paved-roadways/ https://www.ayresassociates.com/the-long-and-short-of-it-lif... [1]: https://trenchlesspedia.com/the-lifespan-of-steel-clay-plastic-composite-pipes/2/3429 https://trenchlesspedia.com/the-lifespan-of-steel-clay-plast...
        amluto 1y ago
        A city could replace pipes preventatively as part of road resurfacing when the pipes are sufficiently old.
aziaziazi 1y ago
OP numbers aren’t only a city problem, IIRC [0] the numbers are close here in France. There’s a startup that try to tackle it : www.leakmited.com/en I applied there 3 month ago and they never responded. Can’t blame them but I’m a bit sad: it’s the dream impact-job. [0] 20% apparently https://www.eaufrance.fr/repere-rendement-des-reseaux-deau-potable https://www.eaufrance.fr/repere-rendement-des-reseaux-deau-p...
- teruakohatu 1y ago
  I wouldn’t be too sad. There are lots of companies offering ML leak detection. Most or many are using fibre optics and using them to detect changes in temperature or noise along the line. Sample the signal for period of time and run it through a model and you have leak detection.
- Spooky23 1y ago
  Good catch. I mentioned it to one my wife’s former coworkers and he laughed - I guess our city is in particularly good shape. Mea culpa.
dmbche 1y ago
My city loses about 30% of the water going through it's pipes, including leaking wastewater directly into rainwater drains ( left untreated). I believe some of the plumbing was wood pipes in select very busy parts of the city until somewhat recently, as it was a nightmare to replace.
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  > as it was a nightmare to replace. I suspect this is the problem with all aging infrastructure; 100 years ago or more, water, sewage and electricity was deployed everywhere, but then they just kept building and rerouting and now the systems have become unmaintainable. I wonder if this has improved in any way since then in newly constructed areas / cities. I'm thinking a service tunnel underneath roads with all the pipes and lines clearly marked and installed in a highly accessible fashion. Said service tunnel can also be used for daring heists and escapes and the like.
downrightmike 1y ago
Mexico City, by some estimates loses about 40% of its water that does enter its system, whether it's through leaky pipes or being stolen. https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/05/27/mexico-city-water-crisis-is-due-to-climate-change-and-infrastructure-problems https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/05/27/mexico-city-wat...
sidewndr46 1y ago
As others have mentioned here in Austin there are several creek beds that flow beautiful crystal, clear water during the droughts. It's because the pipes leak that much. Treated drinking water as it turns out is quite beautiful flowing down an otherwise dry creek bed.

mlinhares 1y ago

TIL clay pipes are a thing but it does make a lot of sense there would be.

close04 1y ago
These are probably the longest lasting option we have right now, and is far more eco-friendly than the closest alternatives, plastics or concrete.

mschuster91 1y ago

Here in Germany, we estimate sewer infrastructure to last anywhere from 50-100 years, and water mains around 50-ish years. After that, it needs replacement or, that's the modern thing but it's a one-trick pony, re-lining. The prudent thing would be to set aside and invest a tiny bit of money every year to fund a replacement, but unfortunately modern economic theory ("run lean") and manufactured income crises (aka, politicians going for lower taxes and utility rates) have led to a lot of infrastructure being utterly dilapidated and no savings left, and now we need to invest untold billions of euros raised from debt to keep it running. Unfortunately, a lot of the deciders are already dead, and for those that still live, it's fallen out of favor to hold them accountable.

bluGill 1y ago
Smart is to have a crew that replaces a little every year. That way they build expertise in how to do it and there isn't a large expense all at once. You can likely get a discount with private plumbers because you want it done sometime and so they schedlue around other customers who want it now.
- estimator7292 1y ago
  That doesn't track because the real cost to replacing underground infrastructure is not the digging, materials, or labor. We avoid such maintenance as long as possible because shutting down a road is usually very expensive in terms of second-order effects. Digging up a pipe and replacing it is actually pretty cheap and easy. Disrupting a main thoroughfare is incredibly expensive in terms of lost productivity, transport, shipping.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    there are enough roads in any city as to rebuild a few every year. Pipes don't last as long as pavement in general.
    - gnabgib 1y ago
      Pipes have lifetimes of 2-10x roads... where's your data from? Roads[0]: Asphalt (18 years), Concrete (25 years) - requires good expansion gaps, good substrate, zero roadwork over its lifetime. Pipes[1]: HPDE (50-100 years), PVC (50-70 years), Reinforced Concrete (75-100 years) Vitrified Clay Pipes (Several centuries), Galvanised Steel (40-70 years) [0]: https://www.ayresassociates.com/the-long-and-short-of-it-lifespans-of-paved-roadways/ https://www.ayresassociates.com/the-long-and-short-of-it-lif... [1]: https://trenchlesspedia.com/the-lifespan-of-steel-clay-plastic-composite-pipes/2/3429 https://trenchlesspedia.com/the-lifespan-of-steel-clay-plast...
      - amluto 1y ago
        A city could replace pipes preventatively as part of road resurfacing when the pipes are sufficiently old.

aziaziazi 1y ago

OP numbers aren’t only a city problem, IIRC [0] the numbers are close here in France. There’s a startup that try to tackle it : www.leakmited.com/en I applied there 3 month ago and they never responded. Can’t blame them but I’m a bit sad: it’s the dream impact-job. [0] 20% apparently https://www.eaufrance.fr/repere-rendement-des-reseaux-deau-potable https://www.eaufrance.fr/repere-rendement-des-reseaux-deau-p...

teruakohatu 1y ago
I wouldn’t be too sad. There are lots of companies offering ML leak detection. Most or many are using fibre optics and using them to detect changes in temperature or noise along the line. Sample the signal for period of time and run it through a model and you have leak detection.
Spooky23 1y ago
Good catch. I mentioned it to one my wife’s former coworkers and he laughed - I guess our city is in particularly good shape. Mea culpa.

dmbche 1y ago

My city loses about 30% of the water going through it's pipes, including leaking wastewater directly into rainwater drains ( left untreated). I believe some of the plumbing was wood pipes in select very busy parts of the city until somewhat recently, as it was a nightmare to replace.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago
> as it was a nightmare to replace. I suspect this is the problem with all aging infrastructure; 100 years ago or more, water, sewage and electricity was deployed everywhere, but then they just kept building and rerouting and now the systems have become unmaintainable. I wonder if this has improved in any way since then in newly constructed areas / cities. I'm thinking a service tunnel underneath roads with all the pipes and lines clearly marked and installed in a highly accessible fashion. Said service tunnel can also be used for daring heists and escapes and the like.

downrightmike 1y ago

Mexico City, by some estimates loses about 40% of its water that does enter its system, whether it's through leaky pipes or being stolen. https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/05/27/mexico-city-water-crisis-is-due-to-climate-change-and-infrastructure-problems https://www.marketplace.org/story/2024/05/27/mexico-city-wat...

sidewndr46 1y ago

As others have mentioned here in Austin there are several creek beds that flow beautiful crystal, clear water during the droughts. It's because the pipes leak that much. Treated drinking water as it turns out is quite beautiful flowing down an otherwise dry creek bed.