4 ms·

Update on my Racket exit

35 points by todsacerdoti 1y ago

dang 1y ago
Related: Racket frustrates me - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541758 - June 2023 (127 comments)
edem 1y ago
I have 2 questions: - What is he using now? (Python?) - Is there a LISP dialect that doesn't suffer from this problem? I can see that from time to time LISP projects start taking off just do die a year later and I'm stuck using Emacs (Lighttable comes into mind)
- valorzard 1y ago
  Clojure and Common Lisp are still around and are quite active. There’s been a lot of cool stuff brewing for both languages recently
- Jtsummers 1y ago
  > - What is he using now? (Python?) From the blog: >> I’ve been writing a great deal of Python, Bash, Awk, Perl 5 for my own consumption
  - edem 1y ago
    I saw that but it wasn't explicitly stated that's why I asked.
  - hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago
    Incidentally these are all languages that come preinstalled out of the box on Debian. [1] So that leads me to suspect this person might be trying to develop something in extremis, with zero connection to the internet whatsoever and zero tools except what comes preinstalled on a typical Linux box. [1]: https://til.andrew-quinn.me/posts/what-programming-languages-come-out-of-the-box-on-debian-12/ https://til.andrew-quinn.me/posts/what-programming-languages...
- forgetfulness 1y ago
  It was developer experience that precipitated this fallout, a language usually needs to be growing in user base for the developer experience to improve as people complain and tackle problems they encounter. The old linked thread had some prominent figure saying “but just do <inconvenient thing>” in response to every issue, if the language isn’t growing, only people accustomed to the inconveniences stick around. So, I’d say it used to be Clojure, but now I doubt there is one.
- samdphillips 1y ago
  > - Is there a LISP dialect that doesn't suffer from this problem? I am not sure what problem you are referring to. Racket has been actively developed since the mid-90s.
behnamoh 1y ago
Is this much drama around a tiny niche language normal? I've been happily using Python for over a decade and never encountered weird, dramatic behavior by its creators or main developers. Could it be that some languages, through the target audience they attract, seal their disastrous fate? By that I mean languages that attract nerds like me or peculiar math-oriented minds who can nit pick at every single detail. You wouldn't expect this much nit from a mass-scale enterprise language like Java.
- leoc 1y ago
  Tim Peters and GvR did both hit the news https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/09/core_python_developer_suspended_coc/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/09/core_python_developer... in the past couple of years!
- delusional 1y ago
  Small languages, especially languages without an organization behind them, don't have anybody to manage the oddities of the humans creating it. Python had that one core developer that was banned by the oversight board. There was quite a bit of drama around that, but it was buried in the boring Bureaucracy of it all. I'd be surprised if some of the Java developers wouldn't be assholes or weird, just statistically. The difference there is that you don't interact with the individual developers. Oracle handle all of that internally.
- ivape 1y ago
  Never ever underestimate people’s need to not be bored. The meditative mind is not something that’s just handed to you.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- CommieBobDole 1y ago
  To quote Charles Issawi: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." Big projects have big problems to deal with. On small projects with no such distractions, the influence of personalities is relatively larger.
neilv 1y ago
* Racket is for great programmers who don't care about whether they have the latest JS or Python community commodity keywords on their resume. You can be ridiculously productive with it. * Over the years, the academic priorities and investment of Racket have been its greatest strength, but also sometimes a weakness. * Yes, getting good at Scheme or Racket and/or Common Lisp will make you a better programmer, but a less employable one. Keep it secret, not on your resume. (Though, if you write blog posts to promote your personal brand, you can do a rare post on Lisps, with a carefully-tuned level of casual curiosity, so that readers think you are a smart and savvy brogrammer, but not an actual nerd. Be sure dilute the Lisp on your blog, with some currently popular other keywords, to signal in a way recognizable to bros that you are gettin' it done, in a bro fist-bumping way, with your stacks and workflows and sprints and standups and OKRs and KPIs and RSUs.)

35 points by todsacerdoti 1y ago

dang 1y ago

Related: Racket frustrates me - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36541758 - June 2023 (127 comments)

edem 1y ago

I have 2 questions: - What is he using now? (Python?) - Is there a LISP dialect that doesn't suffer from this problem? I can see that from time to time LISP projects start taking off just do die a year later and I'm stuck using Emacs (Lighttable comes into mind)

valorzard 1y ago
Clojure and Common Lisp are still around and are quite active. There’s been a lot of cool stuff brewing for both languages recently
Jtsummers 1y ago
> - What is he using now? (Python?) From the blog: >> I’ve been writing a great deal of Python, Bash, Awk, Perl 5 for my own consumption
- edem 1y ago
  I saw that but it wasn't explicitly stated that's why I asked.
- hiAndrewQuinn 1y ago
  Incidentally these are all languages that come preinstalled out of the box on Debian. [1] So that leads me to suspect this person might be trying to develop something in extremis, with zero connection to the internet whatsoever and zero tools except what comes preinstalled on a typical Linux box. [1]: https://til.andrew-quinn.me/posts/what-programming-languages-come-out-of-the-box-on-debian-12/ https://til.andrew-quinn.me/posts/what-programming-languages...
forgetfulness 1y ago
It was developer experience that precipitated this fallout, a language usually needs to be growing in user base for the developer experience to improve as people complain and tackle problems they encounter. The old linked thread had some prominent figure saying “but just do <inconvenient thing>” in response to every issue, if the language isn’t growing, only people accustomed to the inconveniences stick around. So, I’d say it used to be Clojure, but now I doubt there is one.
samdphillips 1y ago
> - Is there a LISP dialect that doesn't suffer from this problem? I am not sure what problem you are referring to. Racket has been actively developed since the mid-90s.

behnamoh 1y ago

Is this much drama around a tiny niche language normal? I've been happily using Python for over a decade and never encountered weird, dramatic behavior by its creators or main developers. Could it be that some languages, through the target audience they attract, seal their disastrous fate? By that I mean languages that attract nerds like me or peculiar math-oriented minds who can nit pick at every single detail. You wouldn't expect this much nit from a mass-scale enterprise language like Java.

leoc 1y ago
Tim Peters and GvR did both hit the news https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/09/core_python_developer_suspended_coc/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/09/core_python_developer... in the past couple of years!
delusional 1y ago
Small languages, especially languages without an organization behind them, don't have anybody to manage the oddities of the humans creating it. Python had that one core developer that was banned by the oversight board. There was quite a bit of drama around that, but it was buried in the boring Bureaucracy of it all. I'd be surprised if some of the Java developers wouldn't be assholes or weird, just statistically. The difference there is that you don't interact with the individual developers. Oracle handle all of that internally.
ivape 1y ago
Never ever underestimate people’s need to not be bored. The meditative mind is not something that’s just handed to you.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
CommieBobDole 1y ago
To quote Charles Issawi: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." Big projects have big problems to deal with. On small projects with no such distractions, the influence of personalities is relatively larger.

neilv 1y ago

* Racket is for great programmers who don't care about whether they have the latest JS or Python community commodity keywords on their resume. You can be ridiculously productive with it. * Over the years, the academic priorities and investment of Racket have been its greatest strength, but also sometimes a weakness. * Yes, getting good at Scheme or Racket and/or Common Lisp will make you a better programmer, but a less employable one. Keep it secret, not on your resume. (Though, if you write blog posts to promote your personal brand, you can do a rare post on Lisps, with a carefully-tuned level of casual curiosity, so that readers think you are a smart and savvy brogrammer, but not an actual nerd. Be sure dilute the Lisp on your blog, with some currently popular other keywords, to signal in a way recognizable to bros that you are gettin' it done, in a bro fist-bumping way, with your stacks and workflows and sprints and standups and OKRs and KPIs and RSUs.)