3 ms·

A lot of people on this thread don’t seem to realize that solar and wind now work fine without government subsidies. The Biden-era subsidies have been about acc

A lot of people on this thread don’t seem to realize that solar and wind now work fine without government subsidies. The Biden-era subsidies have been about accelerating decarbonization, not about propping up the market. If you let the market choose, it would choose a lot of wind and solar. > Despite facing macro challenges and headwinds, utility-scale solar and onshore wind remain the most cost-effective forms of new-build energy generation on an unsubsidized basis (i.e., without tax subsidies). So the admin just needs to get out of the alway and let the market solve this problem. Not try to centrally manage the economy like the Soviet Union. 1 - https://www.lazard.com/news-announcements/lazard-releases-2025-levelized-cost-of-energyplus-report-pr/ https://www.lazard.com/news-announcements/lazard-releases-20...

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> lot of people on this thread don’t seem to realize that solar and wind now work fine without government subsidies This isn’t about subsidies. Orsted, for example, is being blocked on national security grounds using environmental regulation [1]. Power producers are in on a fix. [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/us-orders-orsted-halt-offshore-wind-project-deepening-industry-woes-2025-08-22/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/us-orders-orsted-ha...
- softwaredoug 1y ago
  Yes it’s about naked obstructionism now. Which is horrible for the US economy as it insulates our companies from market pressure, preventing them from adapting.
  - delusional 1y ago
    It's also quite bad for US "allies". My country, Denmark, is (in my own opinion, this hasn't been discussed by the media yet) going to have to bail out Orsted.
- Spivak 1y ago
  Ah yes Republicans, the party of strong environmental regulations and impeding business. "You betrayed everything you believe in, and for what?" "To own the libs."
- nerevarthelame 1y ago
  The truly free market response to all of this would be to remove the need for approvals, or just rubber stamp all projects with no real review. I don't think that's a great idea. But this is the complete opposite of that. The market wants to build more renewables, and the administration is blocking it. It's amazing how much leeway many people give this administration for policies that they have a long history of opposing: government ownership of companies (10% of Intel, US Steel's "golden share"), blocking private development of energy production, sending the National Guard to hostilely takeover cities, etc. It's the sort of stuff that they've accused their opponents of wanting to do in deranged, nightmarish worst-case scenarios.
AnotherGoodName 1y ago
One of the biggest improvements recently is battery tech. Many countries are 10x'ing the GWh of battery capacity in the next couple of years without any real government drive. https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-battery-storage-capacity/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-ba... This is one thing that actually prevents the power price spikes since the batteries can jump in to cover gaps. I can quote many installations that have completely paid themselves off in 2 years (see hornsdale battery as an example - one year of operation alone, 2020, generated profit of half its initial $90million cost) and while this 2 year payoff will come down as more and more are installed part of the reason the payoff is going down is due to power price costs becoming more and more steady as more batteries are installed. Even the USA is installing massive amounts of capacity right now. Look at Texas - 3x battery capacity available in 2025 compared to 2024 due to massive installations coming online and they are a state that does not do a lot to support renewables at all. There's no stopping it, it doesn't need subsidies and it's one of the most straightforward capital payoffs available right now. I actually think the predictions in the article won't come to fruition honestly. The battery installation rise is dominating the investment landscape right now and it's completely flown under the radar without any political controversy (no things such as questionable media trying to claim battery banks are somehow bad for our health and should be stopped) nor are there subsidies required.
jorgen123 1y ago
And remember that you all are part of the market. In my area you can choose what power generation your electricity comes from. Most customers do not bother, unfortunately (less than 10% of Marin Clean Energy customers). I know, not real-time. Renewable energy credit trading, and such. But you become the demand for clean generation if you choose to do so. It is easy. If you are in Marin, Contra Costa, Napa, or Solano go to https://mcecleanenergy.org/opt-up/ https://mcecleanenergy.org/opt-up/ Similar CCA's are all over California and probably beyond.
czhu12 1y ago
The government is actively threatening to block wind and solar projects through permitting denials. The market can’t permit for itself no matter how good the economics are. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2025/08/20/trump-says-us-will-not-approve-solar-or-wind-power-projects.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2025/08/20/trump-says-us-will-not-a...
- softwaredoug 1y ago
  Exactly right. But keep in mind most solar is built on private lands only needing local/state approval. With the biggest builders red states like Texas.
  - Drunk_Engineer 1y ago
    Yes, but local permitting is a complete shitshow. For example, I should be able to plug in a simple balcony-solar system, but my PUC prohibits the technology.
    - softwaredoug 1y ago
      Yes. Though that’s the current regime most capacity is installed under. And the companies building solar farms have more energy to navigate the process than me/you. But it just goes to show you being involved in local government, showing up to advocate for green energy projects, etc at local levels is one of the best things you can do.
  - nozzlegear 1y ago
    Living in northwest Iowa – which is one of the biggest wind energy producing states in the US! – there has been resistance against wind turbines at the local level for my entire life. It's not at all uncommon to see yard signs with slogans like "Say no to turbines" and "Preserve our scenic countryside"¹. These have always been present – I remember seeing them even as a kid, but they were just symbolic protest² and you'd only see them out on farms that had turbines in view. What's different now is that you'll see these signs in towns, and the people who have these signs in their yard are also winning county supervisor/councilor seats that they use to regulate wind to death. Temporary "pauses" are put on permit requests that get tabled while they "study" new rules endlessly; road and shadow setbacks are being increased; turbine height caps are introduced at levels that prevent the current machines from being upgraded; noise limits, lighting mandates, even county-wide caps on turbine numbers. I think the trend is still positive in favor of wind in Iowa, but at the local level, there is a concerted effort to bog it down in red tape and kill it. ¹ Never mind that the scenic countryside is actually just amber waves of industrial corn and hog manure lagoons. ² As much as I can recall, I wasn't exactly in tune with local politics as a child.

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> lot of people on this thread don’t seem to realize that solar and wind now work fine without government subsidies This isn’t about subsidies. Orsted, for example, is being blocked on national security grounds using environmental regulation [1]. Power producers are in on a fix. [1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/us-orders-orsted-halt-offshore-wind-project-deepening-industry-woes-2025-08-22/ https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/us-orders-orsted-ha...

softwaredoug 1y ago
Yes it’s about naked obstructionism now. Which is horrible for the US economy as it insulates our companies from market pressure, preventing them from adapting.
- delusional 1y ago
  It's also quite bad for US "allies". My country, Denmark, is (in my own opinion, this hasn't been discussed by the media yet) going to have to bail out Orsted.
Spivak 1y ago
Ah yes Republicans, the party of strong environmental regulations and impeding business. "You betrayed everything you believe in, and for what?" "To own the libs."
nerevarthelame 1y ago
The truly free market response to all of this would be to remove the need for approvals, or just rubber stamp all projects with no real review. I don't think that's a great idea. But this is the complete opposite of that. The market wants to build more renewables, and the administration is blocking it. It's amazing how much leeway many people give this administration for policies that they have a long history of opposing: government ownership of companies (10% of Intel, US Steel's "golden share"), blocking private development of energy production, sending the National Guard to hostilely takeover cities, etc. It's the sort of stuff that they've accused their opponents of wanting to do in deranged, nightmarish worst-case scenarios.

AnotherGoodName 1y ago

One of the biggest improvements recently is battery tech. Many countries are 10x'ing the GWh of battery capacity in the next couple of years without any real government drive. https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-battery-storage-capacity/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-ba... This is one thing that actually prevents the power price spikes since the batteries can jump in to cover gaps. I can quote many installations that have completely paid themselves off in 2 years (see hornsdale battery as an example - one year of operation alone, 2020, generated profit of half its initial $90million cost) and while this 2 year payoff will come down as more and more are installed part of the reason the payoff is going down is due to power price costs becoming more and more steady as more batteries are installed. Even the USA is installing massive amounts of capacity right now. Look at Texas - 3x battery capacity available in 2025 compared to 2024 due to massive installations coming online and they are a state that does not do a lot to support renewables at all. There's no stopping it, it doesn't need subsidies and it's one of the most straightforward capital payoffs available right now. I actually think the predictions in the article won't come to fruition honestly. The battery installation rise is dominating the investment landscape right now and it's completely flown under the radar without any political controversy (no things such as questionable media trying to claim battery banks are somehow bad for our health and should be stopped) nor are there subsidies required.

jorgen123 1y ago

And remember that you all are part of the market. In my area you can choose what power generation your electricity comes from. Most customers do not bother, unfortunately (less than 10% of Marin Clean Energy customers). I know, not real-time. Renewable energy credit trading, and such. But you become the demand for clean generation if you choose to do so. It is easy. If you are in Marin, Contra Costa, Napa, or Solano go to https://mcecleanenergy.org/opt-up/ https://mcecleanenergy.org/opt-up/ Similar CCA's are all over California and probably beyond.

czhu12 1y ago

The government is actively threatening to block wind and solar projects through permitting denials. The market can’t permit for itself no matter how good the economics are. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2025/08/20/trump-says-us-will-not-approve-solar-or-wind-power-projects.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2025/08/20/trump-says-us-will-not-a...

softwaredoug 1y ago
Exactly right. But keep in mind most solar is built on private lands only needing local/state approval. With the biggest builders red states like Texas.
- Drunk_Engineer 1y ago
  Yes, but local permitting is a complete shitshow. For example, I should be able to plug in a simple balcony-solar system, but my PUC prohibits the technology.
  - softwaredoug 1y ago
    Yes. Though that’s the current regime most capacity is installed under. And the companies building solar farms have more energy to navigate the process than me/you. But it just goes to show you being involved in local government, showing up to advocate for green energy projects, etc at local levels is one of the best things you can do.
- nozzlegear 1y ago
  Living in northwest Iowa – which is one of the biggest wind energy producing states in the US! – there has been resistance against wind turbines at the local level for my entire life. It's not at all uncommon to see yard signs with slogans like "Say no to turbines" and "Preserve our scenic countryside"¹. These have always been present – I remember seeing them even as a kid, but they were just symbolic protest² and you'd only see them out on farms that had turbines in view. What's different now is that you'll see these signs in towns, and the people who have these signs in their yard are also winning county supervisor/councilor seats that they use to regulate wind to death. Temporary "pauses" are put on permit requests that get tabled while they "study" new rules endlessly; road and shadow setbacks are being increased; turbine height caps are introduced at levels that prevent the current machines from being upgraded; noise limits, lighting mandates, even county-wide caps on turbine numbers. I think the trend is still positive in favor of wind in Iowa, but at the local level, there is a concerted effort to bog it down in red tape and kill it. ¹ Never mind that the scenic countryside is actually just amber waves of industrial corn and hog manure lagoons. ² As much as I can recall, I wasn't exactly in tune with local politics as a child.