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All politics aside, I want to note that this is not a “little known” thing and I’ve never seen it talked about as a “loophole.” I’m a pilot, I know hundreds mo

All politics aside, I want to note that this is not a “little known” thing and I’ve never seen it talked about as a “loophole.” I’m a pilot, I know hundreds more pilots. Most individuals who own a plane (even a Cessna that costs less than a car) know about and often use this program. It’s very much well known in the aviation community. And outside of that I’d say it would be more surprising to people that the general public can track any aircraft public or private! (Imagine everyone’s car being able to be real time tracked by license plate by anyone anytime) Now, bringing some politics in, it does feel like aircraft movement for the purpose of public government use should be documented and available.

relaxing 1y ago
You’re a pilot, you can probably think of some differences in the way aircraft operate versus roadcraft, that makes tracking them a much more reasonable proposition.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
> Imagine everyone’s car being able to be real time tracked by license plate by anyone anytime) Except ... every plane is being tracked in real time by the FAA (or other aeronautical organizations) for the good of both those on the plane and those around it. The question is not whether such tracking happens or not, but merely whether the data is publically available. The analogy with cars would require that someone is actually tracking car positions, which as far as we know is not happening at any significant scale.
- miohtama 1y ago
  There was this funny Twitter account that was posting when dictators visited Geneve airport, but looks like it is taken down https://x.com/gva_watcher https://x.com/gva_watcher
- mitchellh 1y ago
  Exactly right. That’s what I’m saying. The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. The side effect that any random public individual can access this from their couch does not. So, perhaps to reword my “imagine:” imagine the government required a tracker on every car, AND that data would be available to anyone in the entire world who wants it at anytime with no restrictions whatsoever.
  - throw0101c 1y ago
    > Exactly right. That’s what I’m saying. The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. Except there often exists tracking even when ATC is not involved, e.g., a VFR flight. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Access_Transceiver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Access_Transceiver * https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/research/airspace https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/researc...
    - mitchellh 1y ago
      I’m aware thank you. When I say air traffic I don’t mean exclusively ATC, I mean generally for all parties involved in air traffic (such as other pilots in the air). I don’t think such a use case exists for any person in the entire world on their couch.
  - petertodd 1y ago
    > The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. There's probably a way that the system could achieve the same safety benefits without invading privacy. Obviously, this FAA list is part of that. But there's probably even better tech that could achieve this too. I'm not an aviation expert so I'll leave the details to those people. But we should be trying to find ways to improve the privacy of this system. Give it time and people will try to justify real time tracking of all car traffic for "safety" reasons too...
    - sigwinch 1y ago
      At the bottom of the article, it’s noted that lawmakers very recently removed the ability to determine the owner of a tail number.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  Cars are being tracked at significant scale. Police and private entities commonly use ALPR systems and that data gets fed back to the manufacturer for resale on the capitalist surveillance market. Combine that with an IMSI catcher and you can derive identities without access to the license plate database. This works in conjunction with vehicles that have cellular modems sending GPS position to the manufacturer, for resale, and phones that send GPS position to the network operator, for resale. The non-flying public is extensively tracked.
amake 1y ago
> It’s very much well known in the aviation community Do you think the article is speaking primarily to the "aviation community"?

relaxing 1y ago

You’re a pilot, you can probably think of some differences in the way aircraft operate versus roadcraft, that makes tracking them a much more reasonable proposition.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago

> Imagine everyone’s car being able to be real time tracked by license plate by anyone anytime) Except ... every plane is being tracked in real time by the FAA (or other aeronautical organizations) for the good of both those on the plane and those around it. The question is not whether such tracking happens or not, but merely whether the data is publically available. The analogy with cars would require that someone is actually tracking car positions, which as far as we know is not happening at any significant scale.

miohtama 1y ago
There was this funny Twitter account that was posting when dictators visited Geneve airport, but looks like it is taken down https://x.com/gva_watcher https://x.com/gva_watcher
mitchellh 1y ago
Exactly right. That’s what I’m saying. The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. The side effect that any random public individual can access this from their couch does not. So, perhaps to reword my “imagine:” imagine the government required a tracker on every car, AND that data would be available to anyone in the entire world who wants it at anytime with no restrictions whatsoever.
- throw0101c 1y ago
  > Exactly right. That’s what I’m saying. The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. Except there often exists tracking even when ATC is not involved, e.g., a VFR flight. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Access_Transceiver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Access_Transceiver * https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/research/airspace https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/equipadsb/researc...
  - mitchellh 1y ago
    I’m aware thank you. When I say air traffic I don’t mean exclusively ATC, I mean generally for all parties involved in air traffic (such as other pilots in the air). I don’t think such a use case exists for any person in the entire world on their couch.
- petertodd 1y ago
  > The tracking itself for air traffic control purposes has an obvious good purpose. There's probably a way that the system could achieve the same safety benefits without invading privacy. Obviously, this FAA list is part of that. But there's probably even better tech that could achieve this too. I'm not an aviation expert so I'll leave the details to those people. But we should be trying to find ways to improve the privacy of this system. Give it time and people will try to justify real time tracking of all car traffic for "safety" reasons too...
  - sigwinch 1y ago
    At the bottom of the article, it’s noted that lawmakers very recently removed the ability to determine the owner of a tail number.
kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
Cars are being tracked at significant scale. Police and private entities commonly use ALPR systems and that data gets fed back to the manufacturer for resale on the capitalist surveillance market. Combine that with an IMSI catcher and you can derive identities without access to the license plate database. This works in conjunction with vehicles that have cellular modems sending GPS position to the manufacturer, for resale, and phones that send GPS position to the network operator, for resale. The non-flying public is extensively tracked.

amake 1y ago

> It’s very much well known in the aviation community Do you think the article is speaking primarily to the "aviation community"?