4 ms·

I’m in the U.S. and am not aligned with what’s happening to freedom. Taking a step back, I support the ideals (the good ones at least) of what I’d perceived th

I’m in the U.S. and am not aligned with what’s happening to freedom. Taking a step back, I support the ideals (the good ones at least) of what I’d perceived that our country was founded on. I also support the individual people in our police and military, but not the fascist orders that they’re having to fulfill. I think the majority of these people joined to uphold law and order or to protect all people in-general, I don’t think they want to be doing these things some of them are being ordered to do, and I think that continuing to do bad things is how fascists are able to take hold. This is a predicament, because it’s like you’re driving the bus and a fascist jumps into your lap with a gun to your head and takes the wheel, while he has others put guns to the head of your family and others on the bus. No one asked for this, and I still feel like there are many that believe that there is nothing we can do and that it will take care of itself. But the gerrymandering law that just passed in Texas, on top of everything else that was already in place, is another warning that this won’t go away on its own. I get what you’re saying about sending people to space, but I think that being able to get off our big rock if we can do so without destroying other life and other places in the universe is worth time and effort. Even natives that lived with the land and life that existed had to move sometimes, life and all that exists physically that has space is to some degree nomadic.

Dumblydorr 1y ago
I doubt a lot of the individuals doing these actions, like police or ICE, don’t believe in this. They signed up for these jobs, and votes last year show many of them heartily endorse and believe in these policies.
- acdha 1y ago
  The national guard, though, probably didn’t sign up to be the backdrop for political ads and a lot of FBI, DEA, etc. agents signed up to work on major crimes rather than busting someone’s landscaper.
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    Folks doing those duties and jobs should know that these organizations are parts of the executive role and remit of the president. They signed up to do whatever the president orders them to do. Officers have a somewhat different oath, but the chain of command is still abundantly clear to all involved.
    - rootusrootus 1y ago
      Yes, they should know that now, in 2025. But last year, or 10, 20, 30 years ago? Nobody joined a federal law enforcement agency expecting the president to utilize them for political goals. And for sure nobody joining the national guard was expecting that. I hope that someday we will put this genie back in the bottle and return to the previous normal.
      - aspenmayer 1y ago
        > Nobody joined a federal law enforcement agency expecting the president to utilize them for political goals. And for sure nobody joining the national guard was expecting that. I don't buy this. These folks literally swear an oath. National Guard troops are literally flag bearers. Those US flag patches on their uniforms mean that they don't get to decide that an order that is otherwise lawful is "political" in nature and therefore invalid. If they don't want to do their jobs, as ordered, they should resign. These are not private employees, they are public servants.
        rootusrootus 1y ago
        I agree with you that they swore to uphold lawful orders. Yes, that is drilled into us from the first day of bootcamp, over and over and over and over. But you were saying they signed up with the expectation of being political pawns. That is not the argument you seem to be making now.
        aspenmayer 1y ago
snickerdoodle12 1y ago
[flagged]
_9ptr 1y ago
[flagged]
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago
  I’d caution against taking simplistic views and recommend peaking behind the veil. Id start by looking into the deportees, people like Abreco Garcia — working men and women who contributed to their society, and all those who received pardons — between rapists, violent criminals, and abusers, you’d have a hard time replacing many of the deportees.
  - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
    Peeking*
  - account42 1y ago
    Simplistic views like equating everything you don't like with fascism?
    - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
      That’s a very tired position… the irony of it all is that this view is also simplistic and unworthy of HN. How about we do better and say trying to steel man the claim and then refute? Of course one has to understand the claims before they can steelman the argument.
TomLisankie 1y ago
> I don’t think they want to be doing these things some of them are being ordered to do, and I think that continuing to do bad things is how fascists are able to take hold. Check out "Ordinary Men" by Christopher R. Browning.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_R._Browning#Ordinary_Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_R._Browning#Ordina... Also check out this one, written to counter Ordinary Men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioner... It's not well-regarded, but I think that one thing the book tries to bring to light is the context and valence of values of the times, and the political furor of that era which directly contributed to the hatred and violence. I'm not sure that it's fair to say that they were just following orders without looking at the broader social context that people were living in up to the point that those orders were given. I think that his concept of "eliminationist racism" is somewhat accurate, as I have known race-based supremacists in real life, and have had them protest/counter-protest public events I have been involved with providing security for. I don't support racial supremacy or hatred in any way, in case that was ambiguous or unclear from context.
Belopolye 1y ago
>"I think the majority of these people joined to uphold law and order or to protect all people in-general" What delectable naivete.
purplejacket 1y ago
Cops don't become psychopaths rather: Psychopaths become cops.

Dumblydorr 1y ago

I doubt a lot of the individuals doing these actions, like police or ICE, don’t believe in this. They signed up for these jobs, and votes last year show many of them heartily endorse and believe in these policies.

acdha 1y ago
The national guard, though, probably didn’t sign up to be the backdrop for political ads and a lot of FBI, DEA, etc. agents signed up to work on major crimes rather than busting someone’s landscaper.
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  Folks doing those duties and jobs should know that these organizations are parts of the executive role and remit of the president. They signed up to do whatever the president orders them to do. Officers have a somewhat different oath, but the chain of command is still abundantly clear to all involved.
  - rootusrootus 1y ago
    Yes, they should know that now, in 2025. But last year, or 10, 20, 30 years ago? Nobody joined a federal law enforcement agency expecting the president to utilize them for political goals. And for sure nobody joining the national guard was expecting that. I hope that someday we will put this genie back in the bottle and return to the previous normal.
    - aspenmayer 1y ago
      > Nobody joined a federal law enforcement agency expecting the president to utilize them for political goals. And for sure nobody joining the national guard was expecting that. I don't buy this. These folks literally swear an oath. National Guard troops are literally flag bearers. Those US flag patches on their uniforms mean that they don't get to decide that an order that is otherwise lawful is "political" in nature and therefore invalid. If they don't want to do their jobs, as ordered, they should resign. These are not private employees, they are public servants.
      - rootusrootus 1y ago
        I agree with you that they swore to uphold lawful orders. Yes, that is drilled into us from the first day of bootcamp, over and over and over and over. But you were saying they signed up with the expectation of being political pawns. That is not the argument you seem to be making now.
        aspenmayer 1y ago

snickerdoodle12 1y ago

[flagged]

_9ptr 1y ago

[flagged]

PartiallyTyped 1y ago
I’d caution against taking simplistic views and recommend peaking behind the veil. Id start by looking into the deportees, people like Abreco Garcia — working men and women who contributed to their society, and all those who received pardons — between rapists, violent criminals, and abusers, you’d have a hard time replacing many of the deportees.
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago
  Peeking*
- account42 1y ago
  Simplistic views like equating everything you don't like with fascism?
  - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
    That’s a very tired position… the irony of it all is that this view is also simplistic and unworthy of HN. How about we do better and say trying to steel man the claim and then refute? Of course one has to understand the claims before they can steelman the argument.

TomLisankie 1y ago

> I don’t think they want to be doing these things some of them are being ordered to do, and I think that continuing to do bad things is how fascists are able to take hold. Check out "Ordinary Men" by Christopher R. Browning.

aspenmayer 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_R._Browning#Ordinary_Men https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_R._Browning#Ordina... Also check out this one, written to counter Ordinary Men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioners https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_Willing_Executioner... It's not well-regarded, but I think that one thing the book tries to bring to light is the context and valence of values of the times, and the political furor of that era which directly contributed to the hatred and violence. I'm not sure that it's fair to say that they were just following orders without looking at the broader social context that people were living in up to the point that those orders were given. I think that his concept of "eliminationist racism" is somewhat accurate, as I have known race-based supremacists in real life, and have had them protest/counter-protest public events I have been involved with providing security for. I don't support racial supremacy or hatred in any way, in case that was ambiguous or unclear from context.

Belopolye 1y ago

>"I think the majority of these people joined to uphold law and order or to protect all people in-general" What delectable naivete.

purplejacket 1y ago

Cops don't become psychopaths rather: Psychopaths become cops.