5 ms·

Germany's Copyright Clearing House now requires courts for website blocks

79 points by nsdfg 1y ago

ACCount37 1y ago
This shouldn't exist at all. But it probably beats it existing and being accountable to no one.
- gruez 1y ago
  >This shouldn't exist at all If you think copyrights should exist at all, website blocks must exist as well, otherwise copyrights become unenforceable. Blocking straightforwardly copyright infringement sites (eg. a site that streams full episodes of TV shows) is a pretty logical consequence of a government enforcing its copyright laws.
  - ACCount37 1y ago
    I'd rather copyright be unenforceable then. "Hide piracy web sites from mainstream search engines" is the extent of what I'm willing to tolerate. Tools that allow for blocking of arbitrary websites entirely should not exist at all.
    - gruez 1y ago
      >Tools that allow for blocking of arbitrary websites entirely should not exist at all. Does this include websites for drugs, CSAM, human trafficking, or other criminal activity?
      - ACCount37 1y ago
        Yes. If those are real world criminal activities with real world impacts, you should go after the perpetrators instead of playing the shell game with websites. You can't make violent criminals disappear by sweeping them under the rug.
        gruez 1y ago
        Isn't that kind of like saying "it's fine to have hit-for-hire ads in newspaper classifieds[1], because if hit-for-hire is really a problem they can just go after the hitmen/clients?". I think most people wouldn't tolerate criminal activity being advertised in the open, even though they know forcing such activity to go underground wouldn't prevent the criminal activity from happening. [1] ignoring how you'd anonymously place/respond to the ads
        AAAAaccountAAAA 1y ago
        That's not a good example imo, since newspaper ads are in any case a curated platform.
        gruez 1y ago
        >since newspaper ads are in any case a curated platform. They are? You just pay $100 (or whatever) and it gets posted. The only curation that might happen is the fact that a human probably has to manually insert it into the draft, because the newspaper hasn't developed proper automation for this sort of stuff. Moreover this is easily side-stepped by replacing "newspaper classifieds" with "ads stapled onto power poles" or "ads placed online" (in which case it probably is automated and there's no human review).
        bigbadfeline 1y ago
        > Isn't that kind of like saying "it's fine to have hit-for-hire ads in newspaper classifieds" No, it's not "kind of" in legal sense. Genaral information and specific threats are treated differently under the law. Genaral info us free speech. Specific threats are criminal intent and conspiracy - all punishable.
        gruez 1y ago
        >No, it's not "kind of" in legal sense. Genaral information and specific threats are treated differently under the law. That argument doesn't really make sense considering illegal streaming sites are allowing you to commit a crime immediately. The "general information" equivalent for copyright infringement would be something like a wikipedia article on how torrents work. Moreover if your objection is over the fact that hit-for-hire is violence and illegal streaming sites isn't, what do you think about sites offering other sorts of non-violent crime? DDoS or doxing for hire, for instance? Should the authorities be able to get an injunction against such sites?
  - nadermx 1y ago
    Actually the berne convention gives you right to sue in the jurisdiction where your rights are being violated. Given there is some sort of fair use in most jurisidictions, and its compeltly with in even europeans rights to save entire movies for personal use, the parent comment to you is right. Tools exist for them to enforce them by going after the domain registrar or hosting provider. All site blocking does is trample on rights over "alleged" infrignment.
    - gruez 1y ago
      >Actually the berne convention gives you right to sue in the jurisdiction where your rights are being violated. I don't get it, is your claim that the rightsholders can sue in German courts and get an injunction if they want sites blocked, or that site blocks shouldn't be needed at all because suing people (but not blocking the sites) is an adequate remedy for infringement? > Tools exist for them to enforce them by going after the domain registrar or hosting provider. What if the domain registrar or hosting provider is in another country? If some Chinese company is infringing on some German company's IP, is your response to tell them to sue them in China, rather than have the goods be blocked at the border? >Given there is some sort of fair use in most jurisidictions, and its compeltly with in even europeans rights to save entire movies for personal use, the parent comment to you is right. Unless there's some context that's missing from the article, the sites being blocked seems like they're straightforwardly committing copyright infringement. It's not like youtube-dl is being taken down or whatever. "movie streaming sites are fine because there's a tiny chance that it's used by someone who already owns the movie" seems like a flimsy excuse to allow such sites to continue operating.
      - nadermx 1y ago
        >I don't get it, is your claim that the rightsholders can sue in German courts and get an injunction if they want sites blocked, or that site blocks shouldn't be needed at all because suing people (but not blocking the sites) is an adequate remedy for infringement? Yet your own response seems to imply you do get it? >What if the domain registrar or hosting provider is in another country? If some Chinese company is infringing on some German company's IP, is your response to tell them to sue them in China, rather than have the goods be blocked at the border? Correct. As the infrigment is happening in China, not in Germany. Just because you don't like the way a law works, doesn't mean you can suddenly claim your rights are being violated some where else. >Unless there's some context that's missing from the article, the sites being blocked seems like they're straightforwardly committing copyright infringement. It's not like youtube-dl is being taken down or whatever. "movie streaming sites are fine because there's a tiny chance that it's used by someone who already owns the movie" seems like a flimsy excuse to allow such sites to continue operating. Yes because a tiny chance of innocence should be completely ignored according to your logic, and given that copyright infringement carries criminal penalties and prison. I hope it's not you who ends up in that situation.
  - Rochus 1y ago
    Instead the police no longer respond when citizens are physically robbed (e.g. https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/basel/erst-ab-einem-warenwert-von-300-franken-basler-polizei-rueckt-nicht-mehr-bei-jedem-diebstahl-von-asylsuchenden-aus-id19345456.html https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/basel/erst-ab-einem-warenwert-v... or https://www.hbb-ev.de/meldungen/ladendiebstahl-im-einzelhandel-strafverfolgung-oft-unwirksam https://www.hbb-ev.de/meldungen/ladendiebstahl-im-einzelhand...). The government cares more for copyright trolls.
  - 627467 1y ago
    If it's worth protecting, copyright holders will find a way to enforce it without needing a police state to do it. The truth is IP loves the contemporary cheapness of information distribution but doesn't want to pay for "undesirable" distribution. Do your own enforcement or don't distribute
- shazbotter 1y ago
  Unlikely. I suspect this will be a rubber stamp mill just like FISA in the United States.
  - yorwba 1y ago
    That comparison doesn't make sense. FISC can only be a rubber stamp because only the US government can bring a case before the court. Any rando can sue German ISPs for not fulfilling their DNS blocking duties under copyright law, but certainly not just any rando can get their DNS blocking request rubberstamped. The policy change also doesn't create a new court. The CUII is a voluntary cooperation whose members exchange information about sites they think they're required to block and agree to all block them simultaneously. Because this structurally looks like an illegal cartel, there used to be a review step by the Federal Network Agency Bundesnetzagentur to make sure that no illegal cartel things were going on. The Bundesnetzagentur felt that this wasn't really part of their core duties, especially considering that there was a perfectly fine court system ready to use, so they asked the CUII to find another way of not looking like an illegal cartel. Now the CUII will wait for one of their ISP members to get sued, in regular civil court, and if the ISP is ordered to perform a block, the CUII will put it on their list and the other ISPs will follow suit without having to redo the legal proceedings for each of them. This change might very well end up increasing the number sites that get blocked, not due to rubberstamping, but because losing a civil suit is less risky than accidentally doing illegal cartel stuff and incurring a correspondingly large fine.

79 points by nsdfg 1y ago

ACCount37 1y ago

This shouldn't exist at all. But it probably beats it existing and being accountable to no one.

gruez 1y ago
>This shouldn't exist at all If you think copyrights should exist at all, website blocks must exist as well, otherwise copyrights become unenforceable. Blocking straightforwardly copyright infringement sites (eg. a site that streams full episodes of TV shows) is a pretty logical consequence of a government enforcing its copyright laws.
- ACCount37 1y ago
  I'd rather copyright be unenforceable then. "Hide piracy web sites from mainstream search engines" is the extent of what I'm willing to tolerate. Tools that allow for blocking of arbitrary websites entirely should not exist at all.
  - gruez 1y ago
    >Tools that allow for blocking of arbitrary websites entirely should not exist at all. Does this include websites for drugs, CSAM, human trafficking, or other criminal activity?
    - ACCount37 1y ago
      Yes. If those are real world criminal activities with real world impacts, you should go after the perpetrators instead of playing the shell game with websites. You can't make violent criminals disappear by sweeping them under the rug.
      - gruez 1y ago
        Isn't that kind of like saying "it's fine to have hit-for-hire ads in newspaper classifieds[1], because if hit-for-hire is really a problem they can just go after the hitmen/clients?". I think most people wouldn't tolerate criminal activity being advertised in the open, even though they know forcing such activity to go underground wouldn't prevent the criminal activity from happening. [1] ignoring how you'd anonymously place/respond to the ads
        AAAAaccountAAAA 1y ago
        That's not a good example imo, since newspaper ads are in any case a curated platform.
        gruez 1y ago
        >since newspaper ads are in any case a curated platform. They are? You just pay $100 (or whatever) and it gets posted. The only curation that might happen is the fact that a human probably has to manually insert it into the draft, because the newspaper hasn't developed proper automation for this sort of stuff. Moreover this is easily side-stepped by replacing "newspaper classifieds" with "ads stapled onto power poles" or "ads placed online" (in which case it probably is automated and there's no human review).
        bigbadfeline 1y ago
        > Isn't that kind of like saying "it's fine to have hit-for-hire ads in newspaper classifieds" No, it's not "kind of" in legal sense. Genaral information and specific threats are treated differently under the law. Genaral info us free speech. Specific threats are criminal intent and conspiracy - all punishable.
        gruez 1y ago
        >No, it's not "kind of" in legal sense. Genaral information and specific threats are treated differently under the law. That argument doesn't really make sense considering illegal streaming sites are allowing you to commit a crime immediately. The "general information" equivalent for copyright infringement would be something like a wikipedia article on how torrents work. Moreover if your objection is over the fact that hit-for-hire is violence and illegal streaming sites isn't, what do you think about sites offering other sorts of non-violent crime? DDoS or doxing for hire, for instance? Should the authorities be able to get an injunction against such sites?
- nadermx 1y ago
  Actually the berne convention gives you right to sue in the jurisdiction where your rights are being violated. Given there is some sort of fair use in most jurisidictions, and its compeltly with in even europeans rights to save entire movies for personal use, the parent comment to you is right. Tools exist for them to enforce them by going after the domain registrar or hosting provider. All site blocking does is trample on rights over "alleged" infrignment.
  - gruez 1y ago
    >Actually the berne convention gives you right to sue in the jurisdiction where your rights are being violated. I don't get it, is your claim that the rightsholders can sue in German courts and get an injunction if they want sites blocked, or that site blocks shouldn't be needed at all because suing people (but not blocking the sites) is an adequate remedy for infringement? > Tools exist for them to enforce them by going after the domain registrar or hosting provider. What if the domain registrar or hosting provider is in another country? If some Chinese company is infringing on some German company's IP, is your response to tell them to sue them in China, rather than have the goods be blocked at the border? >Given there is some sort of fair use in most jurisidictions, and its compeltly with in even europeans rights to save entire movies for personal use, the parent comment to you is right. Unless there's some context that's missing from the article, the sites being blocked seems like they're straightforwardly committing copyright infringement. It's not like youtube-dl is being taken down or whatever. "movie streaming sites are fine because there's a tiny chance that it's used by someone who already owns the movie" seems like a flimsy excuse to allow such sites to continue operating.
    - nadermx 1y ago
      >I don't get it, is your claim that the rightsholders can sue in German courts and get an injunction if they want sites blocked, or that site blocks shouldn't be needed at all because suing people (but not blocking the sites) is an adequate remedy for infringement? Yet your own response seems to imply you do get it? >What if the domain registrar or hosting provider is in another country? If some Chinese company is infringing on some German company's IP, is your response to tell them to sue them in China, rather than have the goods be blocked at the border? Correct. As the infrigment is happening in China, not in Germany. Just because you don't like the way a law works, doesn't mean you can suddenly claim your rights are being violated some where else. >Unless there's some context that's missing from the article, the sites being blocked seems like they're straightforwardly committing copyright infringement. It's not like youtube-dl is being taken down or whatever. "movie streaming sites are fine because there's a tiny chance that it's used by someone who already owns the movie" seems like a flimsy excuse to allow such sites to continue operating. Yes because a tiny chance of innocence should be completely ignored according to your logic, and given that copyright infringement carries criminal penalties and prison. I hope it's not you who ends up in that situation.
- Rochus 1y ago
  Instead the police no longer respond when citizens are physically robbed (e.g. https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/basel/erst-ab-einem-warenwert-von-300-franken-basler-polizei-rueckt-nicht-mehr-bei-jedem-diebstahl-von-asylsuchenden-aus-id19345456.html https://www.blick.ch/schweiz/basel/erst-ab-einem-warenwert-v... or https://www.hbb-ev.de/meldungen/ladendiebstahl-im-einzelhandel-strafverfolgung-oft-unwirksam https://www.hbb-ev.de/meldungen/ladendiebstahl-im-einzelhand...). The government cares more for copyright trolls.
- 627467 1y ago
  If it's worth protecting, copyright holders will find a way to enforce it without needing a police state to do it. The truth is IP loves the contemporary cheapness of information distribution but doesn't want to pay for "undesirable" distribution. Do your own enforcement or don't distribute
shazbotter 1y ago
Unlikely. I suspect this will be a rubber stamp mill just like FISA in the United States.
- yorwba 1y ago
  That comparison doesn't make sense. FISC can only be a rubber stamp because only the US government can bring a case before the court. Any rando can sue German ISPs for not fulfilling their DNS blocking duties under copyright law, but certainly not just any rando can get their DNS blocking request rubberstamped. The policy change also doesn't create a new court. The CUII is a voluntary cooperation whose members exchange information about sites they think they're required to block and agree to all block them simultaneously. Because this structurally looks like an illegal cartel, there used to be a review step by the Federal Network Agency Bundesnetzagentur to make sure that no illegal cartel things were going on. The Bundesnetzagentur felt that this wasn't really part of their core duties, especially considering that there was a perfectly fine court system ready to use, so they asked the CUII to find another way of not looking like an illegal cartel. Now the CUII will wait for one of their ISP members to get sued, in regular civil court, and if the ISP is ordered to perform a block, the CUII will put it on their list and the other ISPs will follow suit without having to redo the legal proceedings for each of them. This change might very well end up increasing the number sites that get blocked, not due to rubberstamping, but because losing a civil suit is less risky than accidentally doing illegal cartel stuff and incurring a correspondingly large fine.