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Is it common for microcontrollers to lack comprehensive documentation, or is it just espressif?

LiamPowell 1y ago
I'm not sure what you mean. There's a 779 page reference manual for the ESP32 series: https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32_technical_reference_manual_en.pdf https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/...
blkhawk 1y ago
uh - you clearly misunderstood something. The video is about the port of the Arduino framework that is running on the ESP32. on the ESP32-S* that have native USB that has implications that makes the option of setting a baud rate for them using the Arduino Framework superfluous. The ESP32 Variants have pretty good documentation themself.
f1shy 1y ago
There are very well documented uCs. I have to admit , is not like in the good old days, but there are decent documented uCs. One thing is happening: as uC (and ASIcs) are getting more complex and complicated, more features are added and not fully (or at all) documented.
- estimator7292 1y ago
  Atmel has shockingly good documentation for their AVR CPUs. The datasheets are always thorough, usually include protocol timing diagrams, psuedocode examples for using peripherals, lots and lots of vital information. Their datasheets also link out to additional documentation like their instruction set manual. Now that is a good read. Love Atmel. They're not perfect, but they're very good and they try pretty hard. TI deleted all the I2C register programming information (40 pages!) from the docs for a widget I was using and it took them months to put it back. The device was literally unusable in any form without that information. Insane.
riedel 1y ago
My experience with microcontrollers is not up to date. Most of the stuff I did was 15 years ago.I remember, Espressif really disrupted the market. Things changed already with Advent of Arduino. Before that people wrote a lot of asm code inline and MCUs particularly from microchip had really good documentations (sure some quirks and errata always appeared later, but as I remember they found their ways into data sheets and application notes). Particularly as binary blobs e.g. for network appeared the API went from well defined hardware interfaces to libraries, etc. Today it is even common for some of those domain specific IC that typically rather contain an MCU that you have to sign NDAs to get access to documentation of some parts.
- Catbert59 1y ago
  > Most of the stuff I did was 15 years ago.I remember, Espressif really disrupted the market. They still are. No vendor until now was able to push out microcontrollers with a solid Wifi integration. Sometimes you can find weird 2-chip-solutions. I still wonder why ST doesn't bring one. That device would be a multi-billion-business.
  - 05 1y ago
    ST are overpriced, no self respecting internet of shit vendor would be caught dead using their MCUs when cheap clones exist.
    - Catbert59 1y ago
      Most clones aren't even close compatible to their originals. Maybe some basic stuff like usart, i2c works fine. But the the deeper you dig into the specialties the more you will have problems. And STM32s and expensive? Maybe if you buy them from Digikey or Mouser. With the right distributor they are dirt cheap.
      - 05 1y ago
        Lots of horror stories from people who had to respin their boards because you couldn't buy ST at any price when they redirected all their output to car manufacturers during the chip shortage. They may be cheaper now but vendor lock-in never helped anyone (except that vendor) in the long run. Oh, and most Chinese wifi gadgets use Beken nowadays because it's even cheaper than Espressif, what are the chances of them switching to a more expensive chipset instead?
ocdtrekkie 1y ago
I was troubleshooting some code of mine that talks to a product Adafruit has been selling for ten years. It turns out the documentation was just plain wrong. Thankfully Adafruit's source code was posted and I could quite confidently see the right way to do it, and submitted feedback on the documentation bug. But I think this is a space where due to the relative ease and cheapness of putting out a product and often fixing it after the fact, there's less eyeballs on any given aspect of a board or the software loaded on it. And a years younger me noticed the issue! But I worked around it instead of reporting it. This time I figured out the source of the problem... but the documentation has been wrong a long time in between. ;)
- estimator7292 1y ago
  Adafruit's libraries are some of the worst code I've ever seen. And I recreationally dive into the low level esp-IDF code (I do not recommend if you value your sanity). I found one just yesterday where the main entry point returns a byte value. It returns 'false' on error, and '0' on success. It may also sometimes return a non-zero error code. You can see why this design would be problematic.
  - elcritch 1y ago
    Yet they generally work. In my experience all of the low level code on uC’s is just short of horrible. That’s ST, NXP, etc, are just full of terrible kludges. Then again some of the Linux kernel drivers can be rough too. The only vendor I’ve heard has good code and documentation is Raspberry Pi Foundation on their silicon.
Catbert59 1y ago
Espressif has stellar datasheets and a very good HAL (esp-idf) with an established community process. This is more about the application running on that device.
ACCount37 1y ago
Espressif's docs are good. You don't want to know what "really bad documentation" looks like in embedded.
publicmail 1y ago
Can’t speak for others, but AVRs usually have excellent documentation IMO. I’ve even seen code snippets for peripherals.
estimator7292 1y ago
Espressif has some of the most thorough documentation in the entire industry. TI (a major American IC manufacturer) regularly shits out half baked datasheets missing important information or incomplete explanations of equations. All the American vendors have terrible documentation.
- baby_souffle 1y ago
  > All the American vendors have terrible documentation And half the time you don’t even find out until you’ve created an account and signed an NDA! Nordic and espressif are some of the good ones, they’re showing up on a lot of my designs for this reason…
  - estimator7292 1y ago
    I won't even work with vendors like that. It's just not worth the time and hassle when you can get an equivalent part for the same or lower price from another vendor that lets you decide if the part will work for you before entering into negotiations
- elcritch 1y ago
  Wow and TI produces some of the better documentation, at least for their analog parts. Their chips seem much more closed. The GPU drivers for the 2 decade old Beagle Bones require an account and NDA IIRC.

I'm not sure what you mean. There's a 779 page reference manual for the ESP32 series: https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/esp32_technical_reference_manual_en.pdf https://www.espressif.com/sites/default/files/documentation/...

blkhawk 1y ago

uh - you clearly misunderstood something. The video is about the port of the Arduino framework that is running on the ESP32. on the ESP32-S* that have native USB that has implications that makes the option of setting a baud rate for them using the Arduino Framework superfluous. The ESP32 Variants have pretty good documentation themself.

f1shy 1y ago

There are very well documented uCs. I have to admit , is not like in the good old days, but there are decent documented uCs. One thing is happening: as uC (and ASIcs) are getting more complex and complicated, more features are added and not fully (or at all) documented.

estimator7292 1y ago
Atmel has shockingly good documentation for their AVR CPUs. The datasheets are always thorough, usually include protocol timing diagrams, psuedocode examples for using peripherals, lots and lots of vital information. Their datasheets also link out to additional documentation like their instruction set manual. Now that is a good read. Love Atmel. They're not perfect, but they're very good and they try pretty hard. TI deleted all the I2C register programming information (40 pages!) from the docs for a widget I was using and it took them months to put it back. The device was literally unusable in any form without that information. Insane.

riedel 1y ago

My experience with microcontrollers is not up to date. Most of the stuff I did was 15 years ago.I remember, Espressif really disrupted the market. Things changed already with Advent of Arduino. Before that people wrote a lot of asm code inline and MCUs particularly from microchip had really good documentations (sure some quirks and errata always appeared later, but as I remember they found their ways into data sheets and application notes). Particularly as binary blobs e.g. for network appeared the API went from well defined hardware interfaces to libraries, etc. Today it is even common for some of those domain specific IC that typically rather contain an MCU that you have to sign NDAs to get access to documentation of some parts.

Catbert59 1y ago
> Most of the stuff I did was 15 years ago.I remember, Espressif really disrupted the market. They still are. No vendor until now was able to push out microcontrollers with a solid Wifi integration. Sometimes you can find weird 2-chip-solutions. I still wonder why ST doesn't bring one. That device would be a multi-billion-business.
- 05 1y ago
  ST are overpriced, no self respecting internet of shit vendor would be caught dead using their MCUs when cheap clones exist.
  - Catbert59 1y ago
    Most clones aren't even close compatible to their originals. Maybe some basic stuff like usart, i2c works fine. But the the deeper you dig into the specialties the more you will have problems. And STM32s and expensive? Maybe if you buy them from Digikey or Mouser. With the right distributor they are dirt cheap.
    - 05 1y ago
      Lots of horror stories from people who had to respin their boards because you couldn't buy ST at any price when they redirected all their output to car manufacturers during the chip shortage. They may be cheaper now but vendor lock-in never helped anyone (except that vendor) in the long run. Oh, and most Chinese wifi gadgets use Beken nowadays because it's even cheaper than Espressif, what are the chances of them switching to a more expensive chipset instead?

ocdtrekkie 1y ago

I was troubleshooting some code of mine that talks to a product Adafruit has been selling for ten years. It turns out the documentation was just plain wrong. Thankfully Adafruit's source code was posted and I could quite confidently see the right way to do it, and submitted feedback on the documentation bug. But I think this is a space where due to the relative ease and cheapness of putting out a product and often fixing it after the fact, there's less eyeballs on any given aspect of a board or the software loaded on it. And a years younger me noticed the issue! But I worked around it instead of reporting it. This time I figured out the source of the problem... but the documentation has been wrong a long time in between. ;)

estimator7292 1y ago
Adafruit's libraries are some of the worst code I've ever seen. And I recreationally dive into the low level esp-IDF code (I do not recommend if you value your sanity). I found one just yesterday where the main entry point returns a byte value. It returns 'false' on error, and '0' on success. It may also sometimes return a non-zero error code. You can see why this design would be problematic.
- elcritch 1y ago
  Yet they generally work. In my experience all of the low level code on uC’s is just short of horrible. That’s ST, NXP, etc, are just full of terrible kludges. Then again some of the Linux kernel drivers can be rough too. The only vendor I’ve heard has good code and documentation is Raspberry Pi Foundation on their silicon.

Catbert59 1y ago

Espressif has stellar datasheets and a very good HAL (esp-idf) with an established community process. This is more about the application running on that device.

ACCount37 1y ago

Espressif's docs are good. You don't want to know what "really bad documentation" looks like in embedded.

publicmail 1y ago

Can’t speak for others, but AVRs usually have excellent documentation IMO. I’ve even seen code snippets for peripherals.

estimator7292 1y ago

Espressif has some of the most thorough documentation in the entire industry. TI (a major American IC manufacturer) regularly shits out half baked datasheets missing important information or incomplete explanations of equations. All the American vendors have terrible documentation.

baby_souffle 1y ago
> All the American vendors have terrible documentation And half the time you don’t even find out until you’ve created an account and signed an NDA! Nordic and espressif are some of the good ones, they’re showing up on a lot of my designs for this reason…
- estimator7292 1y ago
  I won't even work with vendors like that. It's just not worth the time and hassle when you can get an equivalent part for the same or lower price from another vendor that lets you decide if the part will work for you before entering into negotiations
elcritch 1y ago
Wow and TI produces some of the better documentation, at least for their analog parts. Their chips seem much more closed. The GPU drivers for the 2 decade old Beagle Bones require an account and NDA IIRC.