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> Maybe, or maybe the fact that Zig is a small independent project with limited resources has also something to do with it Or, maybe it's this kind of redirect

> Maybe, or maybe the fact that Zig is a small independent project with limited resources has also something to do with it Or, maybe it's this kind of redirection and evidence of a victim complex. Part of the reason that there's a patina of anti-Rust sentiment includes the dismissive attitude and swipes you, a the VP of Community at the Zig Software Foundation, take towards Rust and Rust developers by writing about topics you aren't involved in and don't have a solid grasp of. https://kristoff.it/blog/raii-rust-linux/ https://kristoff.it/blog/raii-rust-linux/ https://lobste.rs/s/hxerht/raii_rust_linux_drama#c_gbn1q8 https://lobste.rs/s/hxerht/raii_rust_linux_drama#c_gbn1q8 Or similarly, comments like this one in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=44994749 https://news.ycombinator.com/context?id=44994749

baranul 1y ago
This Zig victim complex, smells of clear hypocrisy, as can be easily seen by their swipes and harassment of other programming languages, like V (Vlang). It reflects poorly on any leadership engaging in that kind of bad and unprofessional behavior, and it eventually backfires on any project or person. People eventually notice it and figure out the foul things that have been or is being done, then demand accountability or walk away from the toxicity.
littlestymaar 1y ago
Loris really isn't a person worth engaging with honestly, don't waste your time.
- hardwaresofton 1y ago
  Personal attacks like this have no place on HN.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Then Loris should have been perma-banned long ago. Until this is done, we'll have to warn people about engaging with him…
    - cztomsik 1y ago
      NOBODY should EVER be perma-banned just because you disagree with them! What the hell?
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        I don't know hat makes you think I'm talking about disagreement, but that's not what I'm talking about, if one cannot help insulting people on a forum, then what they deserve is a ban. First a temporary one, then if they still can't behave then a permanent one. Loris is a bully, that's the problem, not his opinions.
        cztomsik 1y ago
        Do you have any links? It's a bold statement, and I have not personally noticed anything like that (but I am also not actively following him anywhere)
        littlestymaar 1y ago
        I'm sorry I don't keep a track record.
mirashii 1y ago
I just wanted to clarify that I point this out to say that there was a real opportunity in this thread to try to push back on the language wars perception. To me, good community management would be taking the opportunity to say: * Sorry you feel that way, we try not to foster an inclusive environment that avoids language flamewars and negativity towards other languages * Some specific examples of policies that are enacted in community spaces towards that end (e.g. some large programming language discord servers have specific rules against low effort language bashing content and memes) * Take the opportunity to link back to positive things that the Zig team has said about Rust and places where folks have recommended it. Instead, we got a shallow dismissal and redirection, which unfortunately starts to look like a pattern, especially when coming from a person who's in a leadership position in the community being discussed.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
hitekker 1y ago
Much of that bad blood comes from how Rust's leadership attacks other programming languages, online and offline. pcwalton infamously declared zig was "a massive step back for the industry" https://x.com/pcwalton/status/1568306598795431936?s=46&t=OCidhdHuxbUrIkxRja0o1g https://x.com/pcwalton/status/1568306598795431936?s=46&t=OCi.... He and the Rust Core Team had a big reputation for burning bridges. Even to this day, the new Rust leaders are happy to attack other memory safe languages like Go, declaring them "not memory safe" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467200 I think Kristoff remembers these attacks, and crucially how very few voices within the Rust community push back against Rust supremacism.
- zozbot234 1y ago
  > infamously declared zig was "a massive step back for the industry" > [Golang] "not memory safe" Both of these are entirely fair assessments, not "attacks". Golang really does have memory safety issues with concurrent code, and a memory-unsafe language like Zig is a step back even compared to Java/C#, let alone Rust.
  - hitekker 1y ago
    It's an entirely fair assessment within a framework of supremacism. "My language is the best. People who don't use it need to learn it. If they don't, they're bad programmers, maybe even bad people." It's a ugly spirit that no one is honest enough to admit to. But it's there. A few month ago, I saw a supposedly nice Rust leader calling SQLite "a terrible example of anything other than what you can accomplish when you pour enormous resources into a single C library." The end result is that Rust's leaders either avoid interacting with other languages, or engage in flamewars. I think it's a big reason why Java, the most popular and successful memory safe language in the world, has little-to-no formal contacts with the Rust team.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  > Rust supremacism. I can't believe you really wrote that.

baranul 1y ago

This Zig victim complex, smells of clear hypocrisy, as can be easily seen by their swipes and harassment of other programming languages, like V (Vlang). It reflects poorly on any leadership engaging in that kind of bad and unprofessional behavior, and it eventually backfires on any project or person. People eventually notice it and figure out the foul things that have been or is being done, then demand accountability or walk away from the toxicity.

littlestymaar 1y ago

Loris really isn't a person worth engaging with honestly, don't waste your time.

hardwaresofton 1y ago
Personal attacks like this have no place on HN.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Then Loris should have been perma-banned long ago. Until this is done, we'll have to warn people about engaging with him…
  - cztomsik 1y ago
    NOBODY should EVER be perma-banned just because you disagree with them! What the hell?
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      I don't know hat makes you think I'm talking about disagreement, but that's not what I'm talking about, if one cannot help insulting people on a forum, then what they deserve is a ban. First a temporary one, then if they still can't behave then a permanent one. Loris is a bully, that's the problem, not his opinions.
      - cztomsik 1y ago
        Do you have any links? It's a bold statement, and I have not personally noticed anything like that (but I am also not actively following him anywhere)
        littlestymaar 1y ago
        I'm sorry I don't keep a track record.

mirashii 1y ago

I just wanted to clarify that I point this out to say that there was a real opportunity in this thread to try to push back on the language wars perception. To me, good community management would be taking the opportunity to say: * Sorry you feel that way, we try not to foster an inclusive environment that avoids language flamewars and negativity towards other languages * Some specific examples of policies that are enacted in community spaces towards that end (e.g. some large programming language discord servers have specific rules against low effort language bashing content and memes) * Take the opportunity to link back to positive things that the Zig team has said about Rust and places where folks have recommended it. Instead, we got a shallow dismissal and redirection, which unfortunately starts to look like a pattern, especially when coming from a person who's in a leadership position in the community being discussed.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

hitekker 1y ago

Much of that bad blood comes from how Rust's leadership attacks other programming languages, online and offline. pcwalton infamously declared zig was "a massive step back for the industry" https://x.com/pcwalton/status/1568306598795431936?s=46&t=OCidhdHuxbUrIkxRja0o1g https://x.com/pcwalton/status/1568306598795431936?s=46&t=OCi.... He and the Rust Core Team had a big reputation for burning bridges. Even to this day, the new Rust leaders are happy to attack other memory safe languages like Go, declaring them "not memory safe" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467200 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467200 I think Kristoff remembers these attacks, and crucially how very few voices within the Rust community push back against Rust supremacism.

zozbot234 1y ago
> infamously declared zig was "a massive step back for the industry" > [Golang] "not memory safe" Both of these are entirely fair assessments, not "attacks". Golang really does have memory safety issues with concurrent code, and a memory-unsafe language like Zig is a step back even compared to Java/C#, let alone Rust.
- hitekker 1y ago
  It's an entirely fair assessment within a framework of supremacism. "My language is the best. People who don't use it need to learn it. If they don't, they're bad programmers, maybe even bad people." It's a ugly spirit that no one is honest enough to admit to. But it's there. A few month ago, I saw a supposedly nice Rust leader calling SQLite "a terrible example of anything other than what you can accomplish when you pour enormous resources into a single C library." The end result is that Rust's leaders either avoid interacting with other languages, or engage in flamewars. I think it's a big reason why Java, the most popular and successful memory safe language in the world, has little-to-no formal contacts with the Rust team.
littlestymaar 1y ago
> Rust supremacism. I can't believe you really wrote that.