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> actual damage Damage is a funny word here. Yes - money was lost, but no building were destroyed, nor people physically harmed. “Actual damage” makes it soun

> actual damage Damage is a funny word here. Yes - money was lost, but no building were destroyed, nor people physically harmed. “Actual damage” makes it sound like a lot more than lost time and a few extra contracts paid out.

cmcaleer 1y ago
Monetary damages are damages, I don't think this is particularly complicated. If I made it so you couldn't get several weeks of your wages for hours that you worked you would be rightly furious with me and feel like a victim.
- jkaplowitz 1y ago
  Damages in the sense that warrants compensation and likely additional punitive damages as deterrence, agreed. But monetary damages don’t seem sufficient to justify jail time in a society that likes to claim it doesn’t have debtor’s prisons. Yes, yes, criminal law and civil law are two different things and statutes can allow or require imprisonment in a criminal sentence. But we are discussing what is morally appropriate punishment for this misdeed, not what current law allows.
  - rank0 1y ago
    That’s an insane take. Financial damage isn’t a problem for you? What if someone targeted you personally or your business?
    - praptak 1y ago
      I don't buy this equivalence of financial damage to a person with financial damage to a business. If I had a business its finances would be separate from my personal finance using limited liability, so even if someone destroyed 100% of its value, it would only be no return on investment for me - sad and bad but totally not equivalent to losing all my personal money.
      - rank0 1y ago
        And I don’t buy this as a serious well thought out argument. If someone destroys your method of producing personal income they have indeed damaged your personal finances.
      - cowthulhu 1y ago
        What about the employees you had to let go to cover the shortfall? No damages there either?
        praptak 1y ago
        Same category - bad but not enough to warrant four years jail time. Unless you are prepared to argue four years in jail for unlawful termination.
        cowthulhu 1y ago
        Well, I know whose company I’ll be defrauding!
    - jkaplowitz 1y ago
      I’m not arguing against compensation and other dissuasive/retributive punishment - I did call it a misdeed. Suitable compensation and punishment are absolutely appropriate. But yes, I am arguing that four years of prison time (there’s also three years of supervised release - so seven years of court oversight total) is disproportionate punishment, and probably any prison time at all for this act. Prison makes the most sense for violent criminals. I am fine with lots of other compensatory and punitive consequences, including the criminal conviction itself which should not be underestimated as a public record visible in background checks, at least some kinds of orders restricting future activities with computers and/or his former employer for a suitable duration, plus whatever monetary consequences are deemed appropriate.
      - rank0 1y ago
        You’re so noble! /s How much money would someone need to cause in damages to you or your loved ones before you change your tune? Steal your car? Your home? Your parent’s retirement? It’s just money!
        jkaplowitz 1y ago
        Yes. It’s just money, which is why I want non-imprisonment punishments for any of those scenarios, unless prison would usefully achieve some remedial goal like making your car theft example less likely to recur because the person is locked up. There are lots of better ways to punish this kind of crime, generally. Imprisonment doesn’t get my money back, is expensive for the taxpayer, is at least as likely to make the criminal more prone to reoffend as less prone to that given how typical American prisons work, and isn’t necessary for either retributive or deterrent purposes. Their criminal record, any court order to pay compensatory and punitive damages, any loss of their own property or bankruptcy that results, and so on would be plenty of retribution and deterrence. Now, if they try to flee from justice or violate court orders or hide assets in ways that imprisonment would usefully interfere with, that’s a different question. Prison makes sense in many cases, but merely making the victims of a nonviolent monetary crime feel satisfied is not inherently such a case.
        1y ago
  - ofalkaed 1y ago
    Compensation and damages would probably mean decades of a bleak existence with most of your meger earnings going to the compensation and damages you owe. Chances are it will be a long time before he can get a good paying job after this, not like he has a good reference from his previous employer. I would seriously consider the prison time if given the option.
    - jkaplowitz 1y ago
      You know that the prison time he was given does not rule out compensation and damages but rather might be in addition, right? The company can still sue for those damages, and they can take all the findings of law and findings of fact from the criminal case as already proven without having to reprove those.
      - ofalkaed 1y ago
        >But we are discussing what is morally appropriate punishment for this misdeed, not what current law allows. Even if you had not said that, your argument ignores my point.
        jkaplowitz 1y ago
        > Even if you had not said that, your argument ignores my point. I don’t think I am. You argued against compensation and damages, which are not at all ruled out by the prison sentence, and said you’d seriously consider the prison time if given the option. I assume mean that you’d consider the prison time as an alternative to the compensation and damages, but that’s not what happened here. Did you actually mean you’d consider the prison time whether or not the company could still sue you in civil court for damages and whether or not the criminal sentencing court could also order financial restitution? If so, I guess I did miss that implication, but it seems unlikely. Maybe you would want the free lodging and food in that scenario due to the career and financial difficulties that will result from this, even if the free options on offer are a prison cell and prison food? I think very few people with a spouse or kids (or elderly parents) depending on them would make the same choice, but I can see how some young single people might.
- skywal_l 1y ago
  > If I made it so you couldn't get several weeks of your wages for hours that you worked This is called wage theft and I haven't seen anybody going to jail for it. I don't condone what this person did, but I wish justice was as swift for crimes committed by the rich and powerful.
  - paulddraper 1y ago
    Depends on the state, but wage theft is a criminal offense (punishable by jail). And generally, the scale of the damage affects the punishment.
    - exe34 1y ago
      can you name one director who went to jail for this?
rogers12 1y ago
As a thought experiment, consider how much monetary loss and how much time wasted you would tolerate before "it's just money bro" starts wearing thin.
- gpvos 1y ago
  It's a company, not a person.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    Which means it affects hundreds if not thousands of people.
jcranmer 1y ago
I think Terry Pratchett laid it out best: > “Do you understand what I'm saying?" shouted Moist. "You can't just go around killing people!" > "Why Not? You Do." The golem lowered his arm. > "What?" snapped Moist. "I do not! Who told you that?" > "I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly. > "I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!" > "No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  Was it really capitalised like that?
  - Pxtl 1y ago
    Yes, things like that are common in Pratchett's writing. Death speaks in ALL CAPS. Death's bosses speak in italics. I. Gods speak in II. Commandments The character speaking in the above quote is Dorfl, a golem, who speaks in Title Case.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      That’s kind of hilarious given who the style reminds me of.

cmcaleer 1y ago

Monetary damages are damages, I don't think this is particularly complicated. If I made it so you couldn't get several weeks of your wages for hours that you worked you would be rightly furious with me and feel like a victim.

jkaplowitz 1y ago
Damages in the sense that warrants compensation and likely additional punitive damages as deterrence, agreed. But monetary damages don’t seem sufficient to justify jail time in a society that likes to claim it doesn’t have debtor’s prisons. Yes, yes, criminal law and civil law are two different things and statutes can allow or require imprisonment in a criminal sentence. But we are discussing what is morally appropriate punishment for this misdeed, not what current law allows.
- rank0 1y ago
  That’s an insane take. Financial damage isn’t a problem for you? What if someone targeted you personally or your business?
  - praptak 1y ago
    I don't buy this equivalence of financial damage to a person with financial damage to a business. If I had a business its finances would be separate from my personal finance using limited liability, so even if someone destroyed 100% of its value, it would only be no return on investment for me - sad and bad but totally not equivalent to losing all my personal money.
    - rank0 1y ago
      And I don’t buy this as a serious well thought out argument. If someone destroys your method of producing personal income they have indeed damaged your personal finances.
    - cowthulhu 1y ago
      What about the employees you had to let go to cover the shortfall? No damages there either?
      - praptak 1y ago
        Same category - bad but not enough to warrant four years jail time. Unless you are prepared to argue four years in jail for unlawful termination.
        cowthulhu 1y ago
        Well, I know whose company I’ll be defrauding!
  - jkaplowitz 1y ago
    I’m not arguing against compensation and other dissuasive/retributive punishment - I did call it a misdeed. Suitable compensation and punishment are absolutely appropriate. But yes, I am arguing that four years of prison time (there’s also three years of supervised release - so seven years of court oversight total) is disproportionate punishment, and probably any prison time at all for this act. Prison makes the most sense for violent criminals. I am fine with lots of other compensatory and punitive consequences, including the criminal conviction itself which should not be underestimated as a public record visible in background checks, at least some kinds of orders restricting future activities with computers and/or his former employer for a suitable duration, plus whatever monetary consequences are deemed appropriate.
    - rank0 1y ago
      You’re so noble! /s How much money would someone need to cause in damages to you or your loved ones before you change your tune? Steal your car? Your home? Your parent’s retirement? It’s just money!
      - jkaplowitz 1y ago
        Yes. It’s just money, which is why I want non-imprisonment punishments for any of those scenarios, unless prison would usefully achieve some remedial goal like making your car theft example less likely to recur because the person is locked up. There are lots of better ways to punish this kind of crime, generally. Imprisonment doesn’t get my money back, is expensive for the taxpayer, is at least as likely to make the criminal more prone to reoffend as less prone to that given how typical American prisons work, and isn’t necessary for either retributive or deterrent purposes. Their criminal record, any court order to pay compensatory and punitive damages, any loss of their own property or bankruptcy that results, and so on would be plenty of retribution and deterrence. Now, if they try to flee from justice or violate court orders or hide assets in ways that imprisonment would usefully interfere with, that’s a different question. Prison makes sense in many cases, but merely making the victims of a nonviolent monetary crime feel satisfied is not inherently such a case.
        1y ago
- ofalkaed 1y ago
  Compensation and damages would probably mean decades of a bleak existence with most of your meger earnings going to the compensation and damages you owe. Chances are it will be a long time before he can get a good paying job after this, not like he has a good reference from his previous employer. I would seriously consider the prison time if given the option.
  - jkaplowitz 1y ago
    You know that the prison time he was given does not rule out compensation and damages but rather might be in addition, right? The company can still sue for those damages, and they can take all the findings of law and findings of fact from the criminal case as already proven without having to reprove those.
    - ofalkaed 1y ago
      >But we are discussing what is morally appropriate punishment for this misdeed, not what current law allows. Even if you had not said that, your argument ignores my point.
      - jkaplowitz 1y ago
        > Even if you had not said that, your argument ignores my point. I don’t think I am. You argued against compensation and damages, which are not at all ruled out by the prison sentence, and said you’d seriously consider the prison time if given the option. I assume mean that you’d consider the prison time as an alternative to the compensation and damages, but that’s not what happened here. Did you actually mean you’d consider the prison time whether or not the company could still sue you in civil court for damages and whether or not the criminal sentencing court could also order financial restitution? If so, I guess I did miss that implication, but it seems unlikely. Maybe you would want the free lodging and food in that scenario due to the career and financial difficulties that will result from this, even if the free options on offer are a prison cell and prison food? I think very few people with a spouse or kids (or elderly parents) depending on them would make the same choice, but I can see how some young single people might.
skywal_l 1y ago
> If I made it so you couldn't get several weeks of your wages for hours that you worked This is called wage theft and I haven't seen anybody going to jail for it. I don't condone what this person did, but I wish justice was as swift for crimes committed by the rich and powerful.
- paulddraper 1y ago
  Depends on the state, but wage theft is a criminal offense (punishable by jail). And generally, the scale of the damage affects the punishment.
  - exe34 1y ago
    can you name one director who went to jail for this?

rogers12 1y ago

As a thought experiment, consider how much monetary loss and how much time wasted you would tolerate before "it's just money bro" starts wearing thin.

gpvos 1y ago
It's a company, not a person.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  Which means it affects hundreds if not thousands of people.

jcranmer 1y ago

I think Terry Pratchett laid it out best: > “Do you understand what I'm saying?" shouted Moist. "You can't just go around killing people!" > "Why Not? You Do." The golem lowered his arm. > "What?" snapped Moist. "I do not! Who told you that?" > "I Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Three Eight People," said the golem calmly. > "I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr Pump. I may be–– all the things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!" > "No, You Have Not. But You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr Lipvig. You Have Ruined Businesses And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Do Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Bread From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr Lipvig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game.”

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
Was it really capitalised like that?
- Pxtl 1y ago
  Yes, things like that are common in Pratchett's writing. Death speaks in ALL CAPS. Death's bosses speak in italics. I. Gods speak in II. Commandments The character speaking in the above quote is Dorfl, a golem, who speaks in Title Case.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    That’s kind of hilarious given who the style reminds me of.