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> supports Graphene but there are too many trade-offs there What are the tradeoffs? I have been following GrapheneOS for a while, and it doesn't seem like ther

by palata 1y ago

> supports Graphene but there are too many trade-offs there What are the tradeoffs? I have been following GrapheneOS for a while, and it doesn't seem like there are many tradeoffs. > OpenStreetMap is still really hard to use and gives bad directions. OpenStreetMap is a database, and most commercial services that are not Google use it. E.g. Uber or Lyft. You just need to find an app that you like. CoMaps is nice, OSMAnd has a lot of feature but the UX is harder. And of course you can contribute to OSM and make it even better than it is! You'll see it's a great community!

nine_k 1y ago
Can you use GrapheneOS with your bank app? With a digital wallet for NFC cards? With Uber or Lyft? (Asking seriously, not rhetorically.)
- octo888 1y ago
  Contactless payments is the the big one that doesn't work and probably won't. You can do in app payments via Google pay though Many banking apps work fine though not all.
  - amaccuish 1y ago
    Luckily my German bank (Volksbank) has its own NFC app on Android. Much maligned years ago when it was announced (why can't they just let me use Google Pay??), I at least have come to the conclusion that it has granted me a freedom that Google does not.
    - wkat4242 1y ago
      And it doesn't let Google snoop on your every transaction. I don't understand how so many people are ok with this. Unfortunately every EU bank card uses Mastercard or visa so the Americans still get to snoop. Time for that to be changed too.
      - codethief 1y ago
        Agreed. Fingers crossed that Wero will change that.
- callahad 1y ago
  My understanding from looking into this two years ago is that it's hit or miss for banks (depending on if they opt into device attestation stuff), no for NFC / Google Wallet, and yes for Uber / Lyft. Apparently the common workaround for the Google Wallet stuff is to pair a GrapheneOS phone with a stock Android smartwatch. Edit: Here's some additional information on banking apps: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... Apparently the common recommendation these days is to use Curve Pay as a virtual card provider on GrapheneOS, which can then route to arbitrary underlying cards. And evidently Google Wallet does work for things that aren't payment cards (airline tickets, transit passes, etc.) on GrapheneOS.
- BeetleB 1y ago
  Yes, these would be my concerns as well. In the past, I would install custom ROMs. Then I stopped doing that and would only root my device. But of late, way, way too many apps refuse to work if rooted (apps that used to be fine with it before). Now I just accept life as it is.
  - palata 1y ago
    Using GrapheneOS is not the same thing as rooting, though.
- jackthetab 1y ago
  This is a question that I rarely see answered but would love to know as well.
  - palata 1y ago
    Nice answer (not by me) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44990889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44990889
- litmus-pit-git 1y ago
  My friend uses a pretty hardened (as per him; I didn't indulge him when he wanted to give me the gory details) Graphene setup on his few years old Pixel. Bank apps - as per him none work. Uber (no Lyft here; other taxi apps) work flawless. Payment apps, he said is a coin toss. On his phone even WhatsApp doesn't work. He anyway prefers Signal (which prob. nobody else uses in his circle except maybe me who has it installed on a secondary phone) or plain SMS. Basically most of the "normal" apps that add integrity checks don't work but he is fine with that.
  - hexfish 1y ago
    Re: the bank apps: that really depends on the bank and the country. I live in a eu-west country and there are afaik no apps that do not run on Graphene (which did suprise me I must admit). Whatsapp can work if you use sandboxed Google Play (I still use a Google account, I just don't want gplay to have effectively root on my device). Depending on the level of integrity check your app might just work. Gory details: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu... And like others said: no contactless payment, but I dont use that personally anyway.
- mlry 1y ago
  I use Graphene but with Google play store app. Here in Europe my banking apps and 2fa apps (SecureGo) work flawlessly. NFC cards work with PassAndroid and FOSSwallet, both from Fdroid. I've had issues installing rather new games via the play store, but most often it takes a couple of tries or a waiting period to work in the end.
- snapplebobapple 1y ago
  I use it with my bank app ymmv
- fak3r 1y ago
  I've been running GrapheneOS for over a year and have had zero issues with 3 different banks, and all credit cards. I'm sure there are issues with some banks, but I've never seen them. I don't use Google Wallet, and never wanted to so if that's a consideration...
BeetleB 1y ago
Someone showed me OSMAnd recently while we were hiking. I installed it as soon as I got home. Great for hiking. Then last week I used it for navigation (on a phone with no SIM card). Absolutely. Terrible. Worst navigation app I've seen. Told me to make a turn at an intersection that did not allow turns. Then at another intersection, it told me to "Turn left", but the display clearly showed it going straight. I'm guessing that the straight road probably is angled 1 degree or something at the intersection and the app was viewing that as a turn.
- neilv 1y ago
  For an open source Android app for OpenStreetMap data, I like Organic Maps, and it normally works great with locally-cached maps. I've had better luck with it than with Google Maps or Apple Maps on phones. (Though, I should mention that twice in the last year I've had Organic Maps become hopelessly confused about where I was, and where I should go. Both times, it had gotten a good GPS location, but then got confused while being out for an extended period of time, like maybe it was dead-reckoning only after that initial lock.)
  - crinkly 1y ago
    +1 for organic maps. Have used it hiking and travelling all over the world. Never had any issues with it. Not had any GPS problems other than that time I was in an area where it was being jammed. Bloody Russians.
  - Freak_NL 1y ago
    Regarding Organic Maps: I would recommend keeping tabs on what is happening there since this year. They seem to be having significant governance issues. https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/organic-maps-open-letter/128851 https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/organic-maps-open-lett... Short story: forget Organic Maps, use successor CoMaps or competitor OsmAnd. https://www.comaps.app/about-us/ https://www.comaps.app/about-us/
    - rpdillon 1y ago
      I was vaguely aware of this drama but hadn't looked into it. After reading through your link, I've switched over to Comaps. I don't like lack of transparency in community driven projects. Appreciate the flag!
mlry 1y ago
I use https://brouter.de/brouter-web https://brouter.de/brouter-web on my laptop. Someone told me that you can use brouter as the nav engine for Osmand and thus greatly improve speed and accuracy for navigation, but I have not yet tried this. And I recently installed GMaps WV from Fdroid as a wrapper for Google Maps. It gives current traffic information but I don't really know if it is even close to gmaps.
TranquilMarmot 1y ago
> What are the tradeoffs? As others point out, my main worry is about banking and NFC. I use NFC payments on my phone a lot, especially for the bus. Getting an Android Smartwatch just for that kind of defeats de-Googling haha. I will probably try out Graphene at some point but that seems like a multi-day project to get it set up, find the tradeoffs, determine if they're worth it, and then potentially switch back to Android. I also worry about the future of Graphene with AOSP going more closed/private: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-development-aosp-3538503/ https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-development-... > OSMAnd has a lot of feature but the UX is harder OSMAnd was the one I tried and it bordered on unusable. I'll try out CoMaps, somebody else suggested Mapy.
- nabakolu 1y ago
  There is also Calyx, which is also a privacy friendly Android distribution. It uses open source versions of Google Services. With my Pixel 8a on Calyx I can use NFC to pay with my Credit Card.
  - palata 1y ago
    > It uses open source versions of Google Services. Microg, right? I don't think this is more private than the Google Services, is it? It's just open source, but it can phone home just the same? > With my Pixel 8a on Calyx Any reason you haven't tried GrapheneOS, given that you already have a Pixel? I have /e/OS because it's the only alternative Android that runs on my FairPhone 3, but I've come to realise that it's actually worse than the Stock Android in terms of security. I really would like to go with GrapheneOS, and I wish more manufacturers made this possible.
- palata 1y ago
  > my main worry is about banking and NFC This may be useful: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... > I also worry about the future of Graphene with AOSP going more closed/private I don't think it's AOSP going more closed, but rather the evolution of the Pixels line. GrapheneOS wants the ability to unlock the bootloader, install their own key and relock the bootloader. Google could technically stop supporting that for the Pixels (just like many (most?) manufacturers do), but they haven't said anything about it. GrapheneOS has mentioned talks with a major manufacturer. I wonder if it will be a Graphene phone (which sounds very tricky) or if it could be something like Huawei or Samsung offering to unlock/relock the bootloader and committing to providing the features necessary for GrapheneOS. The latter would be amazing. > OSMAnd was the one I tried and it bordered on unusable. I love it. But if that's your feeling, definitely try CoMaps: in terms of UX it's on the other end of the spectrum :-).
jacooper 1y ago
All navigation apps that are built on osm have awful routing, particularly with public transport, they are almost useless. That's without taking the missing data into account (shops, opening times, basically zero reviews, etc..)
- palata 1y ago
  Uber and Lyft are built on OSM.
- ihatehn 1y ago
  It's all user submitted. It takes someone caring enough to fix it, to make it work. Check out StreetComplete, Every Door, Vespucci, and/or CoMaps to help add/fix data

by palata 1y ago

nine_k 1y ago

Can you use GrapheneOS with your bank app? With a digital wallet for NFC cards? With Uber or Lyft? (Asking seriously, not rhetorically.)

octo888 1y ago
Contactless payments is the the big one that doesn't work and probably won't. You can do in app payments via Google pay though Many banking apps work fine though not all.
- amaccuish 1y ago
  Luckily my German bank (Volksbank) has its own NFC app on Android. Much maligned years ago when it was announced (why can't they just let me use Google Pay??), I at least have come to the conclusion that it has granted me a freedom that Google does not.
  - wkat4242 1y ago
    And it doesn't let Google snoop on your every transaction. I don't understand how so many people are ok with this. Unfortunately every EU bank card uses Mastercard or visa so the Americans still get to snoop. Time for that to be changed too.
    - codethief 1y ago
      Agreed. Fingers crossed that Wero will change that.
callahad 1y ago
My understanding from looking into this two years ago is that it's hit or miss for banks (depending on if they opt into device attestation stuff), no for NFC / Google Wallet, and yes for Uber / Lyft. Apparently the common workaround for the Google Wallet stuff is to pair a GrapheneOS phone with a stock Android smartwatch. Edit: Here's some additional information on banking apps: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... Apparently the common recommendation these days is to use Curve Pay as a virtual card provider on GrapheneOS, which can then route to arbitrary underlying cards. And evidently Google Wallet does work for things that aren't payment cards (airline tickets, transit passes, etc.) on GrapheneOS.
BeetleB 1y ago
Yes, these would be my concerns as well. In the past, I would install custom ROMs. Then I stopped doing that and would only root my device. But of late, way, way too many apps refuse to work if rooted (apps that used to be fine with it before). Now I just accept life as it is.
- palata 1y ago
  Using GrapheneOS is not the same thing as rooting, though.
jackthetab 1y ago
This is a question that I rarely see answered but would love to know as well.
- palata 1y ago
  Nice answer (not by me) here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44990889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44990889
litmus-pit-git 1y ago
My friend uses a pretty hardened (as per him; I didn't indulge him when he wanted to give me the gory details) Graphene setup on his few years old Pixel. Bank apps - as per him none work. Uber (no Lyft here; other taxi apps) work flawless. Payment apps, he said is a coin toss. On his phone even WhatsApp doesn't work. He anyway prefers Signal (which prob. nobody else uses in his circle except maybe me who has it installed on a secondary phone) or plain SMS. Basically most of the "normal" apps that add integrity checks don't work but he is fine with that.
- hexfish 1y ago
  Re: the bank apps: that really depends on the bank and the country. I live in a eu-west country and there are afaik no apps that do not run on Graphene (which did suprise me I must admit). Whatsapp can work if you use sandboxed Google Play (I still use a Google account, I just don't want gplay to have effectively root on my device). Depending on the level of integrity check your app might just work. Gory details: https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu... And like others said: no contactless payment, but I dont use that personally anyway.
mlry 1y ago
I use Graphene but with Google play store app. Here in Europe my banking apps and 2fa apps (SecureGo) work flawlessly. NFC cards work with PassAndroid and FOSSwallet, both from Fdroid. I've had issues installing rather new games via the play store, but most often it takes a couple of tries or a waiting period to work in the end.
snapplebobapple 1y ago
I use it with my bank app ymmv
fak3r 1y ago
I've been running GrapheneOS for over a year and have had zero issues with 3 different banks, and all credit cards. I'm sure there are issues with some banks, but I've never seen them. I don't use Google Wallet, and never wanted to so if that's a consideration...

BeetleB 1y ago

Someone showed me OSMAnd recently while we were hiking. I installed it as soon as I got home. Great for hiking. Then last week I used it for navigation (on a phone with no SIM card). Absolutely. Terrible. Worst navigation app I've seen. Told me to make a turn at an intersection that did not allow turns. Then at another intersection, it told me to "Turn left", but the display clearly showed it going straight. I'm guessing that the straight road probably is angled 1 degree or something at the intersection and the app was viewing that as a turn.

neilv 1y ago
For an open source Android app for OpenStreetMap data, I like Organic Maps, and it normally works great with locally-cached maps. I've had better luck with it than with Google Maps or Apple Maps on phones. (Though, I should mention that twice in the last year I've had Organic Maps become hopelessly confused about where I was, and where I should go. Both times, it had gotten a good GPS location, but then got confused while being out for an extended period of time, like maybe it was dead-reckoning only after that initial lock.)
- crinkly 1y ago
  +1 for organic maps. Have used it hiking and travelling all over the world. Never had any issues with it. Not had any GPS problems other than that time I was in an area where it was being jammed. Bloody Russians.
- Freak_NL 1y ago
  Regarding Organic Maps: I would recommend keeping tabs on what is happening there since this year. They seem to be having significant governance issues. https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/organic-maps-open-letter/128851 https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/organic-maps-open-lett... Short story: forget Organic Maps, use successor CoMaps or competitor OsmAnd. https://www.comaps.app/about-us/ https://www.comaps.app/about-us/
  - rpdillon 1y ago
    I was vaguely aware of this drama but hadn't looked into it. After reading through your link, I've switched over to Comaps. I don't like lack of transparency in community driven projects. Appreciate the flag!

mlry 1y ago

I use https://brouter.de/brouter-web https://brouter.de/brouter-web on my laptop. Someone told me that you can use brouter as the nav engine for Osmand and thus greatly improve speed and accuracy for navigation, but I have not yet tried this. And I recently installed GMaps WV from Fdroid as a wrapper for Google Maps. It gives current traffic information but I don't really know if it is even close to gmaps.

TranquilMarmot 1y ago

> What are the tradeoffs? As others point out, my main worry is about banking and NFC. I use NFC payments on my phone a lot, especially for the bus. Getting an Android Smartwatch just for that kind of defeats de-Googling haha. I will probably try out Graphene at some point but that seems like a multi-day project to get it set up, find the tradeoffs, determine if they're worth it, and then potentially switch back to Android. I also worry about the future of Graphene with AOSP going more closed/private: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-development-aosp-3538503/ https://www.androidauthority.com/google-android-development-... > OSMAnd has a lot of feature but the UX is harder OSMAnd was the one I tried and it bordered on unusable. I'll try out CoMaps, somebody else suggested Mapy.

nabakolu 1y ago
There is also Calyx, which is also a privacy friendly Android distribution. It uses open source versions of Google Services. With my Pixel 8a on Calyx I can use NFC to pay with my Credit Card.
- palata 1y ago
  > It uses open source versions of Google Services. Microg, right? I don't think this is more private than the Google Services, is it? It's just open source, but it can phone home just the same? > With my Pixel 8a on Calyx Any reason you haven't tried GrapheneOS, given that you already have a Pixel? I have /e/OS because it's the only alternative Android that runs on my FairPhone 3, but I've come to realise that it's actually worse than the Stock Android in terms of security. I really would like to go with GrapheneOS, and I wish more manufacturers made this possible.
palata 1y ago
> my main worry is about banking and NFC This may be useful: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/ https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... > I also worry about the future of Graphene with AOSP going more closed/private I don't think it's AOSP going more closed, but rather the evolution of the Pixels line. GrapheneOS wants the ability to unlock the bootloader, install their own key and relock the bootloader. Google could technically stop supporting that for the Pixels (just like many (most?) manufacturers do), but they haven't said anything about it. GrapheneOS has mentioned talks with a major manufacturer. I wonder if it will be a Graphene phone (which sounds very tricky) or if it could be something like Huawei or Samsung offering to unlock/relock the bootloader and committing to providing the features necessary for GrapheneOS. The latter would be amazing. > OSMAnd was the one I tried and it bordered on unusable. I love it. But if that's your feeling, definitely try CoMaps: in terms of UX it's on the other end of the spectrum :-).

jacooper 1y ago

All navigation apps that are built on osm have awful routing, particularly with public transport, they are almost useless. That's without taking the missing data into account (shops, opening times, basically zero reviews, etc..)

palata 1y ago
Uber and Lyft are built on OSM.
ihatehn 1y ago
It's all user submitted. It takes someone caring enough to fix it, to make it work. Check out StreetComplete, Every Door, Vespucci, and/or CoMaps to help add/fix data