6 ms·

> you should only use kernel anticheat on a dedicated machine that's kept 100% separate from any of your personal data. Correct. Unfortunately, what you've jus

by pxc 1y ago

> you should only use kernel anticheat on a dedicated machine that's kept 100% separate from any of your personal data. Correct. Unfortunately, what you've just described is a gaming console rather than a PC. This problem fundamentally undermines the appeal of PC gaming in a significant way, imo.

thewebguyd 1y ago
> This problem fundamentally undermines the appeal of PC gaming in a significant way, imo. Yes, game publishers are trying to turn PCs into a gaming console, which IMO will always be a futile effort, and is quite frankly annoying. I don't game on PC to have a locked down console-like experience. Just embrace the PC for what it is and stop trying to turn it into a trusted execution platform with spyware and rootkits. Look at BF6 - for all the secure boot and TPM required anti-cheat they stuffed it with, there were cheaters day 1, so why abuse your users when it's clearly ineffective anyway.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  That's what gets me! If these rootkit anti-cheat systems actually stopped cheating then maybe, just maybe, I'd accept them as a necessary evil. But every game that has these things... still has cheaters! So as a user, you're consenting to ripping a security hole through your system, and in return you are still playing games with cheaters. The game companies keep saying these things are necessary, yet they don't fully do the very thing they claim to do on the label.
  - Propelloni 1y ago
    I can't put a finger on it but that tastes like the copyright/DRM situation in reverse.
    - balamatom 1y ago
      Not even in reverse, this is literally DRM. Can't help but ask myself sometimes... why would users want to pay in the first place, for the content of someone who invests more money and leverage that some people see in their entire lives, in delivering user-hostile technical countermeasures that most of the time are ultimately futile? What is the so valuable thing that one is supposed to get out of the work of someone who treats their audience this way, awesomely as their stuff might've been made? That's what doesn't make the most sense to me. But then I remember how most people aren't very intentional about most of their preferences and will accept whatever as long as it's served by an unaccountable industry into everyone's lives at the same time in a predictable manner, and I despair.
      - xg15 1y ago
        Yeah. Anticheat systems are the "think of the children" of DRM. It's the one scenario where you can sell users the hostile takeover of their own computer as actually beneficial for them - because cheaters in multiplayer are a genuine annoyance - while ignoring anything else. Of course the argument falls flat on multiple levels: It ignores other ways to prevent cheaters, like server-side detection or maybe developing a gameplay that is not based on channeling masses of anonymous strangers through the game world. It ignores that it doesn't actually solve the problem of cheaters. And it ignores that many games use anticheat for reasons that don't have to do with multiplayer at all, e.g. to keep players from bypassing in-game purchases.
      - tuhriel 1y ago
        Funnily enough, there is also the exact opposite discurse in the US regarding firearms; where one side says: that firearms need to somehow be restricted and and it needs more checks to buy a gun. But then the Industry tells the story that in that case only the 'good guys' get restricted, since the 'bad guys' don't really follow the law anyways. Where with Anti-cheat and DRM only the 'good guys' get hit, since the 'bad guys' don't follow "the law" anyways.
- frollogaston 1y ago
  How are the cheaters getting around it?
  - quantummagic 1y ago
    Some use dedicated custom hardware, or a second PC, like this: https://www.dma-cheats.com/ https://www.dma-cheats.com/
    - yonatan8070 1y ago
      The amount of effort, time, and money people put into cheating is honestly insane. A 14 year old who installs an autoclicker to mess with friends or randoms online I can get. But there are fully grown adults who dedicate their time and substantial amounts of money (whole second computer) just to win in online video games? What's the motivation/justification for spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on cheating hardware and software? Are these just super-rich people who have more money than sense?
      - RugnirViking 1y ago
        A bit of both. Some very clever people, often in Russia or Philippines or Venezuela etc where incomes and legal risks are low make the cheats, and sell them to idiots in the west.
      - quantummagic 1y ago
        > What's the motivation/justification... No doubt there are various reasons, some more understandable than others. There are some fascinating historical cases, like the one explored in "The King of Kong" : https://youtu.be/_4v15X8Px34 https://youtu.be/_4v15X8Px34 Which is well worth a watch, if you're curious.
      - technothrasher 1y ago
        I haven't paid much attention to any of it, as I don't really like multiplayer games anyway, but I always just assumed many people figure out how to cheat simply as a meta-game. I mean, how can you ask what the motivation to cheat is without asking what the motivation to even play the game in the first place is? Barring professional competition, both playing and cheating are largely meaningless activities outside the simple enjoyment.
pityJuke 1y ago
Honestly, if consoles were willing to accept KB+M (and gyro aiming for that matter), I’d be completely proposing that competitive live service titles mostly abandon PC, except for a small “probably infested with cheaters” base.
- EgregiousCube 1y ago
  It’s happening! https://www.dualshockers.com/battlefield-6-will-support-keyboard-and-mouse-on-consoles/ https://www.dualshockers.com/battlefield-6-will-support-keyb...
- seabrookmx 1y ago
  XBox consoles do in fact support KB+M, though not all games support it.
  - pityJuke 1y ago
    a) are they now supporting any KB+M peripheral? b) should’ve specified this is the bigger problem. glad to see from the other comment bf6 is coming on-board, but VALORANT doesn’t and that’s probably the quintessential title for this.
- ychompinator 1y ago
  Stream console output to pc, use AI to detect enemies, manipulate mouse and keyboard input to aimbot, even consoles aren’t safe
msgodel 1y ago
Somehow Xonotic manages to be both completely free/open software and not have cheating problems like this. It's never been clear to me how they've done that although client-side stuff like these kernel anti-cheat things were obviously never going to work.
- sodality2 1y ago
  Combination of niche/low user base, community servers encouraging user-based enforcement of norms, and the lack of a unified ranking system. People don't cheat if it doesn't psychologically reward them. (at least en masse)

by pxc 1y ago

thewebguyd 1y ago

> This problem fundamentally undermines the appeal of PC gaming in a significant way, imo. Yes, game publishers are trying to turn PCs into a gaming console, which IMO will always be a futile effort, and is quite frankly annoying. I don't game on PC to have a locked down console-like experience. Just embrace the PC for what it is and stop trying to turn it into a trusted execution platform with spyware and rootkits. Look at BF6 - for all the secure boot and TPM required anti-cheat they stuffed it with, there were cheaters day 1, so why abuse your users when it's clearly ineffective anyway.

ryandrake 1y ago
That's what gets me! If these rootkit anti-cheat systems actually stopped cheating then maybe, just maybe, I'd accept them as a necessary evil. But every game that has these things... still has cheaters! So as a user, you're consenting to ripping a security hole through your system, and in return you are still playing games with cheaters. The game companies keep saying these things are necessary, yet they don't fully do the very thing they claim to do on the label.
- Propelloni 1y ago
  I can't put a finger on it but that tastes like the copyright/DRM situation in reverse.
  - balamatom 1y ago
    Not even in reverse, this is literally DRM. Can't help but ask myself sometimes... why would users want to pay in the first place, for the content of someone who invests more money and leverage that some people see in their entire lives, in delivering user-hostile technical countermeasures that most of the time are ultimately futile? What is the so valuable thing that one is supposed to get out of the work of someone who treats their audience this way, awesomely as their stuff might've been made? That's what doesn't make the most sense to me. But then I remember how most people aren't very intentional about most of their preferences and will accept whatever as long as it's served by an unaccountable industry into everyone's lives at the same time in a predictable manner, and I despair.
    - xg15 1y ago
      Yeah. Anticheat systems are the "think of the children" of DRM. It's the one scenario where you can sell users the hostile takeover of their own computer as actually beneficial for them - because cheaters in multiplayer are a genuine annoyance - while ignoring anything else. Of course the argument falls flat on multiple levels: It ignores other ways to prevent cheaters, like server-side detection or maybe developing a gameplay that is not based on channeling masses of anonymous strangers through the game world. It ignores that it doesn't actually solve the problem of cheaters. And it ignores that many games use anticheat for reasons that don't have to do with multiplayer at all, e.g. to keep players from bypassing in-game purchases.
    - tuhriel 1y ago
      Funnily enough, there is also the exact opposite discurse in the US regarding firearms; where one side says: that firearms need to somehow be restricted and and it needs more checks to buy a gun. But then the Industry tells the story that in that case only the 'good guys' get restricted, since the 'bad guys' don't really follow the law anyways. Where with Anti-cheat and DRM only the 'good guys' get hit, since the 'bad guys' don't follow "the law" anyways.
frollogaston 1y ago
How are the cheaters getting around it?
- quantummagic 1y ago
  Some use dedicated custom hardware, or a second PC, like this: https://www.dma-cheats.com/ https://www.dma-cheats.com/
  - yonatan8070 1y ago
    The amount of effort, time, and money people put into cheating is honestly insane. A 14 year old who installs an autoclicker to mess with friends or randoms online I can get. But there are fully grown adults who dedicate their time and substantial amounts of money (whole second computer) just to win in online video games? What's the motivation/justification for spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on cheating hardware and software? Are these just super-rich people who have more money than sense?
    - RugnirViking 1y ago
      A bit of both. Some very clever people, often in Russia or Philippines or Venezuela etc where incomes and legal risks are low make the cheats, and sell them to idiots in the west.
    - quantummagic 1y ago
      > What's the motivation/justification... No doubt there are various reasons, some more understandable than others. There are some fascinating historical cases, like the one explored in "The King of Kong" : https://youtu.be/_4v15X8Px34 https://youtu.be/_4v15X8Px34 Which is well worth a watch, if you're curious.
    - technothrasher 1y ago
      I haven't paid much attention to any of it, as I don't really like multiplayer games anyway, but I always just assumed many people figure out how to cheat simply as a meta-game. I mean, how can you ask what the motivation to cheat is without asking what the motivation to even play the game in the first place is? Barring professional competition, both playing and cheating are largely meaningless activities outside the simple enjoyment.

pityJuke 1y ago

Honestly, if consoles were willing to accept KB+M (and gyro aiming for that matter), I’d be completely proposing that competitive live service titles mostly abandon PC, except for a small “probably infested with cheaters” base.

EgregiousCube 1y ago
It’s happening! https://www.dualshockers.com/battlefield-6-will-support-keyboard-and-mouse-on-consoles/ https://www.dualshockers.com/battlefield-6-will-support-keyb...
seabrookmx 1y ago
XBox consoles do in fact support KB+M, though not all games support it.
- pityJuke 1y ago
  a) are they now supporting any KB+M peripheral? b) should’ve specified this is the bigger problem. glad to see from the other comment bf6 is coming on-board, but VALORANT doesn’t and that’s probably the quintessential title for this.
ychompinator 1y ago
Stream console output to pc, use AI to detect enemies, manipulate mouse and keyboard input to aimbot, even consoles aren’t safe

msgodel 1y ago

Somehow Xonotic manages to be both completely free/open software and not have cheating problems like this. It's never been clear to me how they've done that although client-side stuff like these kernel anti-cheat things were obviously never going to work.

sodality2 1y ago
Combination of niche/low user base, community servers encouraging user-based enforcement of norms, and the lack of a unified ranking system. People don't cheat if it doesn't psychologically reward them. (at least en masse)